We dive deep into the world of conversion copywriting with Linda Malone, a seasoned expert in the field. Linda shares her journey from a diverse background in nutrition, fitness, and content writing to becoming a leading voice in copywriting.
We dive deep into the world of conversion copywriting with Linda Melone, a seasoned expert in the field. Linda shares her journey from a diverse background in nutrition, fitness, and content writing to becoming a leading voice in copywriting.
Linda, with her expert training in conversion copywriting emphasizes the critical differences between content writing and copywriting, highlighting how effective copy can significantly impact business success by driving action and sales.
In our conversation, we tackle key takeways, including:
🚀 Linda’s journey from subject matter expert to copywriting
👂Content vs Copywriting
📊 The Power of Conversion Copywriting
💡 How behavioral science plays a pivotal role in copywriting
Linda and I dive deep into these areas, providing practical advice and real-world examples. Join us as we investigate using the right words to hit your marks.. Don't miss out—subscribe to Markigy with Leanne Dow-Weimer for more insights and expert conversations. Let's get into it! 🌟
Find out more about Linda:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/linda-melone/
Leanne Dow-Weimer
https://www.linkedin.com/in/leannedow/
00:00:11:20 - 00:00:29:13
Speaker 1
Hey there. This is Leanne with Markigy. And today I'm joined by Linda Melone. She is an expert in conversion copywriting. So she has such an amazing journey. She's a serial entrepreneur and she's just doing so much. Linda, tell me more about your background.
00:00:30:10 - 00:00:56:05
Speaker 2
Well, as you said, I'm a serial entrepreneur, which, you know, in one hand, it makes me sound kind of like I'm flaky whenever I hear somebody say, that's like, what? You couldn't make up your mind. But it's what I tend to throw myself into things 110%, burn out, flame out, and then do something else. And so I've been through many incarnations from I mean, I graduated with a degree in nutrition.
00:00:56:06 - 00:01:32:29
Speaker 2
I worked in test kitchens, developing recipes and all kinds of crazy stuff. And then I got into fitness and I but one of the things that has always been an undercurrent of everything I've done is writing in some way, shape or form. I started writing like free articles for magazines just to get sort of my portfolio going. This is way back when I was doing a lot of content and article writing and then just I started an online fitness course and I started writing for fitness magazines and then I flipped completely around and decided, You know what, I want to go back to writing, but I don't want to do content.
00:01:32:29 - 00:01:39:16
Speaker 2
So I morphed into a copywriter about five years ago. So that's in a nutshell.
00:01:41:03 - 00:02:03:24
Speaker 1
And that's something where you and I and I have a strong suspicion of many others where we start off in, you know, this like science place and we realize that, you know, there's this other component to it, this marketing aspect, this like PR aspect, this getting your name out there and attracting people to your message type of thing.
00:02:04:11 - 00:02:27:27
Speaker 1
And that is the difference between people that have no clients and they're just kind of, you know, jumping from referral to referral with hopes and dreams and the people that have more of a study business plan and we've seen that grow exponentially in the age of the fit. Affluence are where the science may have just completely left it.
00:02:28:09 - 00:02:49:14
Speaker 1
And but they're doing they're doing marketing motions. So one of the things that I, you know, you encountered when you are kind of making the switch. What was that and what was that moment that made you think, oh, I've got to change what I was doing and I've got to go after this type of emotion?
00:02:50:12 - 00:03:13:11
Speaker 2
Well, I was working as a content writer. By content writer, I mean just to differentiate because people confuse copywriting, content, writing, which, by the way, I didn't know till I became a copywriter. Content is in there is there is overlap of content is typically copy that is written for entertainment or information purposes where copywriting is more in the marketing.
00:03:13:11 - 00:03:39:19
Speaker 2
In copywriting is to have people take action, preferably to buy what you're selling. And so I was writing articles, magazine articles of content for about ten or 15 years. And I was making good money on it. I was on every site, I was on MSN Health. I had a regular gig with them, and then it literally the bottom fell out like literally overnight.
00:03:39:20 - 00:04:01:25
Speaker 2
I don't know what exactly triggered it, but I started hearing from my editors, you know, I think we're going to start repurposing content. And the MSN contract that I had went away overnight. I still remember the email I got from my editor and I could have just had them as a client and been very happy and that went away.
00:04:02:11 - 00:04:19:28
Speaker 2
And so it was one of those days where, you know, you just like stop working for the day, go out for a walk and just rethink your entire life choices. And so I thought, you know, I need to do something else. And for a while and by while I mean a few years, I went into fitness writing online.
00:04:19:28 - 00:04:42:17
Speaker 2
Well, I started a fitness business online, so I was coaching women over 50 and I just couldn't do with it what I wanted to. So I realized, you know, I wanted I've always loved to write. Let me go back to that. But the the content market was just not the same. Magazines were paying about 25% of what they were like.
00:04:42:17 - 00:04:59:14
Speaker 2
They'll pay you about 25% to write an online article versus a print article. A lot of the magazines I wrote for just folded up and went away, so I thought, All right, I need to do something else. Let me try copywriting at the time, I was doing some writing for Bowflex. They considered it copywriting. They called it that.
00:04:59:14 - 00:05:18:15
Speaker 2
I just wrote for the catalog. I wrote a couple of the catalogs that they put out, but I it wasn't copywriting the way I know it now. Like I did it in the voice they wanted. But I realized I wanted to do more of this, but I didn't have the skills. So that's what made me. It's kind of a long answer to your short question, but.
00:05:18:26 - 00:05:55:05
Speaker 1
No, we love long answers. We're here for the long answers. Right. The the nuance in the the, you know, context to it, I think is is very, very impactful. So, you know, for those that exist in maybe more of a tech world, when when you have a goods producer in the fitness space like Bowflex, what they are is they are selling both B2B to the large big box gyms, small gyms, you know, small boutique studios.
00:05:55:05 - 00:06:26:08
Speaker 1
They're selling both to those individuals as well as direct to consumer. So their business models as these equipment manufacturers is very much alike and they even sell to resellers. So there is no one that they consider outside of their market. And as far as their ICP, they have very many ICP, they have the people that casual use that they hope just buy it and then like, you know, don't do anything with it and then just, you know, it just sits there and then who cares?
00:06:26:17 - 00:06:50:21
Speaker 1
They have the people that buy repeatedly that an outfit like a whole gym or a whole region of gyms or a whole nationwide chain of gyms. They have different product lines for different uses as well. So what this catalog was, was actually a very large project, I would say, in no small economic impact for them like that is, you know, depending.
00:06:51:27 - 00:07:23:20
Speaker 1
Even today within the industry, these catalogs get distributed to people's homes in conferences and events. It it is like very I don't know the word I'm looking for, but it is it's everywhere. Once you like it, is it hard to escape to be in the industry and not receive one of these catalogs? And there's maybe like five if we're being generous, five main competitors in this space.
00:07:24:06 - 00:08:01:00
Speaker 1
I am. And so Bowflex being one of the biggest ones. All right. And so when that just to give scope to like what this project was that made you be like, oh, you know, the impact of this is actually a pretty influential whole thing and it's no small feat. So you were doing this very large project, and the last part of this, because I love to give context, the number of SKUs they have is is pretty large because they have there are like large, large industrial.
00:08:01:14 - 00:08:12:29
Speaker 1
The different ICP is the large like equipment pieces, but then they have accessories and smaller things that they also with their branded stuff. So it's like what like like two or 300 SKUs maybe.
00:08:14:04 - 00:08:17:21
Speaker 2
You know, this was years ago. So I don't know, I'm sure it's changed since then. Yeah.
00:08:18:18 - 00:08:46:19
Speaker 1
But, but it's at least a hundred. It's not like 10 to 20. You know, there is in a tech company they've got like, you know, one main product with like 15 features and, and for every large product there is those features as well. Right. So you were working on this project and you realized that the type of writing that would do it, the best service was a different level than you are currently doing.
00:08:47:00 - 00:08:57:08
Speaker 1
Exactly. And so walk me through the assumed risks that you took where you're like, well, like what? What made you hesitate? And then what made you overcome that hesitation?
00:08:58:07 - 00:09:20:15
Speaker 2
Well, actually, what happened with them, it was easy because they hired me. I just just as a side note, the reason in the way I got hired was that I attended a fitness conference and they had a booth and I was introduced by one of their spokespeople, a triathlete was there and he introduced me to the marketing people.
00:09:20:24 - 00:09:43:17
Speaker 2
And at this time I knew nothing about marketing. I really just was there because they had, you know, they had discounts on, on bands I could use for my clients and stuff. And he talked to me for a while, the marketing VP and I remember he said, It's so nice to meet a writer who's not nuts. What a great sense of humor, he said.
00:09:43:17 - 00:10:00:27
Speaker 2
Because you meet people through email and stuff and you don't know if they are legit or if they're. He use the word crazy. He really did. So he said, I'd like to talk to you about writing in our voice had kind of he says we want something kind of snarky. And I love writing snarky and I don't get a chance to do it that much.
00:10:01:08 - 00:10:18:26
Speaker 2
So that's how I got in there. And so I started thinking, okay, well this is if this is copywriting, I could do this. And then I started and I don't remember exactly because it was a while ago how to market myself as a copywriter. And I had a couple of failures where people were really not happy with my work.
00:10:18:26 - 00:10:41:05
Speaker 2
And I thought, What is it that I'm doing or not doing? And so I started looking into it and realized that it's a whole different set of skills, copywriting is behavioral science. It's, you know, persuasion, writing for persuasion. I knew nothing about any of that. If I did it for Bowflex, it was kind of by accident. And that catalog, a lot of it was just editing like this.
00:10:41:09 - 00:11:08:29
Speaker 2
This is everything. We need you to tighten this up, make it sound better. So they already had a good idea what they wanted. So I started taking courses and I became a certified copywriter, conversion copywriter after when I was running my fitness business online, I wanted to hire. I heard about conversion copywriters and I thought, okay, so this is people who are going to help me sell and I looked into it and I realized I couldn't afford.
00:11:09:03 - 00:11:32:11
Speaker 2
I was just myself and I wasn't making a lot of money with the business, so I couldn't afford to hire the conversion copywriter that I was talking to. But I thought, you know, this is really interesting. And so that's really what sparked the whole journey into all right, I had to learn a whole new set of skills. And so that's what made me get into the copywriting world.
00:11:32:11 - 00:12:01:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think that that's something that a lot of people can relate to when you're a team of one, whether you're a solopreneur or you're at a startup or you're in a small business, is I if you can't, a lot of times your budget is pretty small and you have to make those decisions like, do I hire someone to do this or do I just get scrappy and learn how to do it myself as fast as I can and get as good at it as possible within a short time frame or reasonable time frame.
00:12:01:18 - 00:12:12:17
Speaker 1
And so that that's, you know, where there's a lot of forced learning that happens, but it can be so amazing on the other side of it.
00:12:13:13 - 00:12:34:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, there was a lot to learn. I mean, I was very humbled by how much there was to know about copywriting, and that's why I sort of get offended when people go, Oh, content and copywriting is the same thing. It's like, No, there is some overlap, but there's a huge difference because I learned the hard way by getting, you know, making mistakes and having people say that.
00:12:34:22 - 00:12:47:26
Speaker 2
But I didn't know what I was doing. It was only actually one. It wasn't even a client. It was somebody who was talking to you that was tossing around the idea of hiring me. And she said, Can you sort of give me an example? You don't have any, you know, any. At the time I didn't have a portfolio.
00:12:48:15 - 00:12:55:06
Speaker 2
And she said, she knows this isn't what I had in mind and I didn't know what she was talking about. So, yeah, it's it's a whole different world.
00:12:56:12 - 00:13:46:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, and, you know, I think that there's a lot of temptation for marketers to put out content that they want to always be copywriting. But in some times and places it is more appropriate to have content that is educational, informational and entertaining and not whole. Like always be selling. What's your CTA? You know, this is where when we look at the inbound or the organic or the demand gen, whatever label we're going to slap on it when we look at what we're putting out into the world, when there is building value doesn't always have a conversion response like that is unique to that piece of work.
00:13:47:00 - 00:14:12:05
Speaker 1
And that that's not to say that you have a website and tell me when I'm wrong here. Linda Hey, you have a website and your website has like its overall funnel, but then you don't have to make a unique funnel for each piece of content and be like this one. Now some places that is appropriate buy in like a science or a stem or a, you know, like WebMD is like always trying to sell you on WebMD.
00:14:12:11 - 00:14:13:16
Speaker 1
They just want the traffic.
00:14:14:00 - 00:14:18:09
Speaker 2
Right? It's the right for them to buy it.
00:14:18:15 - 00:14:21:22
Speaker 1
So yeah, when you wrote for them, you were writing content.
00:14:21:22 - 00:14:47:10
Speaker 2
I was writing content. And the thing is, the content is what keeps your company top of mind, you know, like they're going to it's like writing on LinkedIn. Somebody asked me, is that copy or is that content? I mean, it's both. You know, usually people who are writing and posting do a mix like I do. You know, it's I don't always I mean, it would be such a turnoff if every post was like, hey, you know, hire me.
00:14:47:10 - 00:15:10:12
Speaker 2
I mean, no one's going to be listening to that, but it's like value, value, value. I think it's like a 4 to 1. And then, you know, I ask for something or you can ask in the comments for something like Offer a freebie. And then I don't do as much direct messaging as I should with my deal. I don't know, I just because I get hit up so much with DMS, I just want to do that.
00:15:10:18 - 00:15:21:25
Speaker 2
But if there's someone who I think may be interested, then I would. But I'm not one of these people who is like, Oh, I send out, you know, 200 DMS and I got five leads. I'm not doing that well enough.
00:15:21:27 - 00:15:46:29
Speaker 1
That's the difference between sales outreach and writing. You know, is, is the flow of attraction. That was a large part of why I switched over was because I wanted the flow of attraction to be towards me instead of me running and chasing. I am. I felt like there would be more alignment and match in what we were both trying to accomplish.
00:15:46:29 - 00:16:08:04
Speaker 1
So the biggest risk would be wine where you know what? Like switching from writing content and into like copywriting. The, the biggest risk would be like a couple things. It sounds like what? Well, you know, what were they for you?
00:16:10:01 - 00:16:41:03
Speaker 2
Well, the one was the learning curve of just going from one to the other, which and there was like, I didn't know. What I didn't know is the big was the biggest problem and then actually going, you know, deciding to focus on B2B and then finding ways to reach my audience. And that's when I really started getting into LinkedIn because otherwise it's called emails and that's just not something I'm comfortable with and I just don't I just think there are better ways, you know, can I do some cold outreach?
00:16:41:03 - 00:17:00:12
Speaker 2
That's all about timing. You know, you can send all the cold emails in the world and that can be the perfect match for you. But if they don't need you at that time, you know they're not going to hire you. So it was about finding out how and, you know, finding ways to attract my the audience I wanted to work for really is this thing, which is always the problem.
00:17:00:12 - 00:17:01:13
Speaker 2
It's never the challenge.
00:17:02:04 - 00:17:24:07
Speaker 1
But I mean, and that's where it evolves. You know, we start off with one assumption and then we realize that it's actually, you know, there might be a better thing out there that's a better fit. And so there's the learning curve. And then finding the right place and finding the right audience and then defining which motions are the best fit for what you're trying to accomplish.
00:17:24:18 - 00:17:55:01
Speaker 1
Right. And that can be comfort level. Like, you know, some people you and I are into called out outreach as much. And then there's also like business needs. So you needed fewer clients with higher quality. And then rather than, you know, low budget like wide spreads frame pre kind of motion, which is more applicable to something that just needs like sheer numbers, longevity, longevity be damned, you know, and so different businesses have different needs.
00:17:55:23 - 00:18:01:29
Speaker 1
But would you say that every business needs this type of writing?
00:18:01:29 - 00:18:26:17
Speaker 2
Every business needs? I mean, if I mean, if they want to make money, copywriting is essential because otherwise you're just putting out stuff and hoping somebody goes, Oh, maybe they could help me. You know, it's you want to I mean, the biggest thing and one of the most interesting things that I focus on is the whole behavioral science aspect of copywriting.
00:18:27:01 - 00:18:47:28
Speaker 2
And some of it is like, for example, well, it's behavioral science and there's just some of it just out and out, just the marketing of knowing where your target market is in their decision making process. In other words, are they unaware or you know, everyone's heard of this in marketing, are they unaware they pain aware, solution aware, most aware.
00:18:47:28 - 00:19:12:28
Speaker 2
And so if you are writing, say, an ad for Facebook, I've written a bunch of Facebook ads and you don't know that could be anybody coming from that, you know, follow just ending up with that ad or on that ad you need to know how much they know about you and your business to know what to put in the ad do you start with the product?
00:19:12:28 - 00:19:32:16
Speaker 2
Do they already know who you are? Then you can jump into that. And one of the things I wanted to mention, she was like a sales page is a lot of debate about, oh, sales pages are so long, how come they have these, you know, five pages? The reason sales page is like a long form sales page is that long as you're moving people through every stage, every decision making stage.
00:19:33:05 - 00:19:51:13
Speaker 2
And so you are getting I don't know if unaware of they're unaware they're not even going to find you, but their pain aware kind of a problem. But I don't know who this person is. And so you have to address your copy to their pain and then you have to show that you are the solution and then that you're not just one of all these solutions.
00:19:51:13 - 00:20:10:04
Speaker 2
You are the solution, and this is why. So you're taking them through that whole process. And long form sales pages are also known to convert better than short form, because if you're on the page, you know what you want. You're going to scroll down to where the what? What's the price? I know what I want, you know. And so it's not the worst thing.
00:20:10:04 - 00:20:30:17
Speaker 2
But yeah, so every, every company, every business needs copy in some way, shape or form. It could be an email marketing emails, maybe it's not a long form sales page, but copy is essential. And even if they think they don't need it, they're probably using it and aren't aware of it because I don't know how you can exist as a business and not have copy.
00:20:30:17 - 00:20:32:23
Speaker 2
That's the thing that everyone needs copywriters.
00:20:33:16 - 00:20:56:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. At some point you have to ask for the sale and it has to come back to the business motion. It can't just be all informational all the time without like giving people a wanted avenue to take the relationship further and and that's the place where, you know, I think there might be some myths or mistakes besides just content and copywriting being the same and different.
00:20:56:09 - 00:21:20:03
Speaker 1
But it might be in how the consumer feels about the copywriting. Could you and I may know we didn't really talk about this between ourselves, but could you help us understand from a customer centric point of view, how to make sure that we're not making a mistake with our copywriting, to make sure that we're we're aligned with what they actually want?
00:21:20:03 - 00:21:30:12
Speaker 1
And we're not trying to be like everyone's fear of being like the hard salesman or the sleazy salesman. How can we ensure that we're being protective and transparent?
00:21:31:15 - 00:21:53:03
Speaker 2
The number one thing is you need to talk and you hear this all the time. You need to talk to your customers because when especially if I'm writing about health and fitness, which is what I do, primarily the challenge is to hit the pain points in challenges without getting insulting or like, especially when I was writing Facebook ads a lot.
00:21:53:04 - 00:22:12:04
Speaker 2
There are so many things you can't say. Like I had an image of a tape measure in one and they said, No, this is making people feel bad. Okay. I didn't know was like but it has to be addressing the challenge in and getting the emotion into the copy is number one, because we all make decisions based on emotion.
00:22:12:04 - 00:22:33:11
Speaker 2
Even if we think we're logical, we justify it with logic. But we use and this has been shown in research, you know, that we make decisions emotionally. And I think what what people dispute or what they don't understand about that is that they think it's emotional. It's not that you get emotional. You have to burst into tears when you read the copy, but you have to feel something that it'll trigger.
00:22:33:11 - 00:22:53:16
Speaker 2
Something like when I was writing Content four and copy for Fitness and I would talk about, you know, how does it feel to, you know, put on a pair of pants that always fit you and all of a sudden they don't fit anymore? Like you really get into the mind of the person as they're going through that like it.
00:22:53:17 - 00:23:20:23
Speaker 2
But in a way that's like, Hey, it's okay. You have to reassure them. So the emotional part and talking to your customers and finding out what really how are they feeling about this challenge and what is it that they would feel if they resolved that issue? That's the biggest thing. And also that's something I can't do. So that's the the differentiator right there doesn't have that emotional intelligence.
00:23:21:05 - 00:23:33:10
Speaker 2
But to me, that's number one. And even if it if it's finance, it doesn't matter what the subject is. You have to find what that is, the emotion behind it that you want to trigger to make them go. You know what? I think I need this.
00:23:34:06 - 00:24:00:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. So to your point, you have to find the correct emotion. We have all gotten those linked ends where they're all like, Well, you must not want to make money then. Like, because I'm the only solution. No, you're a jerk. Like I can like or the ones you know. And, and I've heard a number of people talk about how they have this idea of consent within and like built into what they're doing.
00:24:00:18 - 00:24:40:08
Speaker 1
And with yours, it's implied consent because it's, you know, that they aren't less for having these feelings. But you're, you know, with them on the same team collaborating to find a solution that will, you know, enrich their goals. Right. And so, you know, it truly does. There's so many examples of bad behavior with this, whether it's from email opt outs, where, you know, we see once again that like snarky, but like rude and condescending, like, oh, yeah, well, I'm just going to stop said like, no, I just don't want your newsletter.
00:24:40:28 - 00:24:57:19
Speaker 2
I wrote a post about that on LinkedIn. I call it the dark side of copywriting. And that was one of the things. It's like, No, I just want to be a loser. Instead of just saying, you know, No, I'm not interested because sometimes you already have the product or service and that's even more insulting to your customers. Like I already opted into this, so now you're insulting me for not doing it again.
00:24:57:19 - 00:25:00:06
Speaker 2
I mean, there's just no no space for that.
00:25:00:26 - 00:25:29:27
Speaker 1
There's no space for that. I mean, I get hit up all the time. I have one web domain where it's just parks. I've done zero. I say, I know I'm not doing anything with it. I am fully aware of its flaws. I just don't care. It's just not a priority. I have better things to do with my time that are going to be a higher priority in my bandwidth and investment and DMing me telling me it sucks is not going to make us friends.
00:25:29:27 - 00:25:42:22
Speaker 1
It's not like, you know, like you are no longer on my team. You are no longer I customer care. You are just a bully asking for change, right? Which is.
00:25:42:22 - 00:26:09:14
Speaker 2
It? I was going to say the analogy I heard is that you envision yourself not talking in front of that person, but standing next to them and looking in the same direction like, okay, I got you this, especially as I said, with fitness. And so especially with the women over 50 who I was targeting for my audience. I mean, you better understand and, you know, because I was in that demographic, I could relate and that was really important for them to know.
00:26:10:01 - 00:26:17:15
Speaker 2
And so that's yeah, that's cool. But that's kind of a bonus. You can't always know exactly what you're you can't be in the same business necessarily.
00:26:17:15 - 00:26:44:13
Speaker 1
But well and you also have a peer group at that point where maybe it wasn't yours, but likely a lot of your peers or colleagues in the same demographic might have felt or shared their opinions about things and, you know, to, to carry this on on another tangent is I don't know if anyone's seen the the viral picture where it shows like Prince Charles and Ozzy Osbourne are the same age.
00:26:45:01 - 00:26:56:22
Speaker 1
And just because there's an age demographic and a gender and demographic or gender identity doesn't mean that those two people are the same bucket that you're marketing to. Right.
00:26:57:10 - 00:26:59:08
Speaker 2
The graphics are completely different.
00:26:59:25 - 00:27:29:13
Speaker 1
I mean, from a health and fitness standpoint, there are it's a little bit simpler because for those that don't know, women over 50 have a certain bucket of health risk and of those include osteoporosis. They include like hip injury, include, you know, like a set list of higher risk things that they might face. I'm in that is based on evidence, that's based on research, that's based on lots and lots of data.
00:27:30:10 - 00:27:57:05
Speaker 1
It's not so much of a guess. It is a this is a real thing. And that doesn't mean that they have it. It just means they're at risk for it. And so, you know, that's there are things that from a health and fitness standpoint, you could market to both Prince Charles and Ozzy Osborne. They probably should be, you know, eating some fiber, working out regularly, maybe some strength training.
00:27:57:05 - 00:28:36:00
Speaker 1
You know, there are some things that they should be doing that we know are just general health, better betterment. And and you can expand that to demographics for other types of B-to-B businesses. You know, everybody should be working on efficiency. Nobody should be wasting money in their business. That's the universe overall. So, you know, would you say that by not doing content writing or by only doing content writing and avoiding copywriting, that people are making like they are like following that universal rule that you've got to make money in your business?
00:28:37:00 - 00:29:03:00
Speaker 2
Well, I think they're probably I mean, if you're in business, you're probably using copy. You're probably using your content as copy, like using it to try to attract business. You're probably just not doing it efficiently or effectively because you need to know the principles behind it. So I mean, you need both. And I will if I'm if I have a copywriting client who wants me to do blogs and I'm writing emails for them, and I can use that email as part of, you know, the blog.
00:29:03:00 - 00:29:30:00
Speaker 2
I will I will do a blog because blog is considered content and I don't usually do it. It's just a whole different mindset, but you need both because you need the blog for the SEO and you need the blog for just keeping top of mind, getting out there and Google and you know, analytics, they love blogs, so you need it for that, but you also need the rest of it, you know, the the emails, the ads or where to depending on what your business is.
00:29:30:00 - 00:29:31:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Any both.
00:29:33:04 - 00:29:33:17
Speaker 1
Fair enough.
00:29:33:17 - 00:29:54:18
Speaker 2
Why can't we all just get along? It's like, you know, we don't it's because I've I've posted about on LinkedIn about you know, copy is the difference between copy and content. And somebody always comes after me for it, you know. And yes, there's some overlap. I mean, I'm not saying this is, you know, the line of demarcation, but there is there is a difference.
00:29:54:25 - 00:29:58:06
Speaker 2
So I've been on both sides. I understand.
00:29:59:11 - 00:30:26:06
Speaker 1
Well, thank you for disputing my false dilemma. But but that's what we're here to do. We're investigating, you know, where is the real question? Where's the real, like, sandbox? What is actually a strategy? And and how does it play in with other strategies? You know, there's a lot of talk out there about like GTM and GTM is a blend of no one's doing only one game strategy at a time.
00:30:26:06 - 00:30:51:08
Speaker 1
And if they are off, you know, there's there's one big one, but they're supported by other ones. And so there's so many false dilemmas like, oh, well, we're doing ABM or we're doing this and we're doing that. And, and the real truth is, is that these things are blended and they have to be holistically blended to match the priorities and personality of the brand.
00:30:51:27 - 00:30:57:12
Speaker 1
Right. And that's just that's how it goes. I wish it could simpler into categories.
00:30:57:12 - 00:31:06:10
Speaker 2
We want to put this in this box, you know, and there's always, you know, something that's usually outside of that that blends with another one.
00:31:07:16 - 00:31:20:04
Speaker 1
Absolutely. All right. We got the big ones. The last couple questions here. What do you think is the future of marketing? And do you think that that's what it should be?
00:31:20:04 - 00:31:42:00
Speaker 2
That is such a huge question. So let me pull up my crystal ball, which I don't have. But, you know, I am not sure. But I think I mean, definitely I is going to have a huge impact and already is. I think like a lot of these things, I think are going to come full circle. You know, we're using AI for everything.
00:31:42:00 - 00:32:08:17
Speaker 2
Everything's automated. I mean, I can't make a doctor's point anymore because I get through some there's the air is getting into so much that now people who have a for example customer support that has real people answering the phone are getting notoriety. I mean, I've had that in with my clients. It's been the feature that I focus on because it it's become a novelty.
00:32:08:17 - 00:32:26:13
Speaker 2
I think we're going to go full circle and start backing off and realizing what the limits are. I could be wrong. I mean, we could end up all just working for robots and, you know, I just hope I'm not here for that right. Scary. Yeah, I don't I'm not sure what would be interesting to say.
00:32:27:11 - 00:32:51:26
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think to to emphasize your point earlier, you mentioned that, hey, I can't come up with, you know, or that that organic I'm in that person's shoes. This is what they feel like because I, as we know it today, is a fancy data scraper. It is not a, you know, creator of new concepts.
00:32:51:26 - 00:33:28:10
Speaker 1
It is Google's search engine excite. It's Smash, smashing it into sentences that it's almost seen on other websites. And that's not that means that there's also false positives and false negatives with it like it's response is are this mishmash and it doesn't have the brain to say, you know, critical thinking, this is not actually true because it's just like, oh, I saw this sentence and this website has authority and I saw this sentence and this website has authority.
00:33:28:10 - 00:33:57:27
Speaker 1
They must fit together, not realizing they don't. So your brain still matters? Yeah. That thing, that ability. Yeah. I hope it stays that way. What is a question someone should ask you? But they don't. And let me get a little bit bigger about what you know, how people take this question. People sometimes say, you know, everyone comes to me for X, Y and Z, but really they need to ask me.
00:33:57:27 - 00:34:13:05
Speaker 1
Way back at ABC, they are asking the wrong question at the wrong point. Or I've had people say, you know why I have this hidden talent and I really wish, you know, people would see that I'm signaling behind me, I've got this thing and I want them. I want to talk about it, like, can we talk about it?
00:34:13:18 - 00:34:20:03
Speaker 1
And so there's there's no wrong way to answer this question. But what is something, you know, tell us?
00:34:20:03 - 00:34:41:24
Speaker 2
I think the biggest question or the biggest thing I talk about or I wish people would ask me more about is does if a company says to me, I want you to redo our value proposition, I want we are not different enough or copy has not differentiated us enough from our competition because that's what I see all the time.
00:34:41:26 - 00:35:07:28
Speaker 2
B2B, I look at a website, it's like, this sounds like every other SAS company site. And so you, you know for me because one of my to Ms. to overuse a well to to mention an overused marketing term my superpower is my ability to take a lot of complex stuff and I can listen to somebody and I can listen to an entire conversation and distill it down to a sentence.
00:35:08:08 - 00:35:33:22
Speaker 2
That's just something I've always been able to do because I've had people say that to me, like, I just spoke to you for an hour and you just put it together. And that's what a value proposition is, is taking all this information, all your customer interviews, all your research and analytics. And let's come up with a sentence that puts everything together, that's memorable, that is different from all your competitors, tells who you serve, what you do.
00:35:33:22 - 00:35:52:23
Speaker 2
And it it is not easy to do. It can take me four weeks to come up with that from all this information. But that's the one thing I think that's missing from most B2B sites and from marketing messages, because everything builds on that value proposition. It's not just the value. It's not just like, Oh, we're just going to say this sentence.
00:35:53:01 - 00:36:11:04
Speaker 2
No, that's where like if I'm doing copy for a company, every time I'm writing copy, I go back to the value proposition and go, okay, does it sound like yes? And then I'll know I'm on the right track. It's like the groundwork for everything. That's the thing that's missing. And people don't ask enough mike drop.
00:36:11:04 - 00:36:39:02
Speaker 1
I mean, there's there's nothing. I have goosebumps bumps. Yes, exactly like that because it's not fluff. It's not for fun. These it's not a flippant thing that you just do because it is your central thing that people are signing up for. And where I've seen this go wrong is that if you sound like everyone else, why? Why bother?
00:36:39:12 - 00:37:01:24
Speaker 1
You know what? Oh, okay. You don't suck. Cool. Like congratulations. Tell me how I'm price. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So then it's a race to the bottom, like, oh, wow. Okay, so. So, okay, so you won't screw me over. Okay, so you have a basic level of business operations, okay? Like, you know, like, wait a while. We they're like, that's telling you.
00:37:01:24 - 00:37:18:24
Speaker 1
You breathe, you have a heartbeat, okay? Like, is there anything else beyond that? And sometimes that's all people can afford. I'm not like saying there's nothing, you know, to be had there, but you just have to be very clear that I'm doing the bare minimum because I'm the cheapest in, you know, you get what you get. You don't want frills.
00:37:18:24 - 00:37:23:15
Speaker 1
We don't have them for you. You can still make it into a legitimate value proposition.
00:37:24:00 - 00:37:24:12
Speaker 2
Right?
00:37:25:27 - 00:37:39:00
Speaker 1
So if there's thing that I want someone to take away from this episode, it's that your value proposition is the biggest deal. And from there, the conversion and the content and all of that supports it.
00:37:39:18 - 00:37:57:04
Speaker 2
Exactly. Or as one of my copywriting coaches said, your value prop is like the main river from which everything trickles down. Like all your copy comes from that, like downstream. It's the upstream. I guess that's your term used in marketing upstream. Downstream. So yeah.
00:37:58:00 - 00:38:21:27
Speaker 1
I use it in, in, you know, psychology, right. If there's a problem, I always go upstream to see what the factors were that went into creating that, that problem. You have to go upstream to find causes to solve for the causes. And if your business is failing, you have to go upstream. And if it's because you didn't establish a clear enough value that someone would sign up for, there's your there's your waterfall.
00:38:22:06 - 00:38:26:20
Speaker 1
There's where it starts and ends. I guess you're lazy river.
00:38:26:20 - 00:38:27:05
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:38:29:14 - 00:38:45:20
Speaker 1
All right. No. Well, we're we're pretty much out of time. What what are some ways for people to get a hold of you or do you have any releases or events coming out in, you know, Q2, Q3 that we should we should think about or get in touch with?
00:38:45:20 - 00:39:10:08
Speaker 2
Well, I'm always on LinkedIn, as you know, I post pretty much daily. That's the best way to reach out to me. You can email me at Linda at the copy works. It's spelled W, R, Ex-con, and I have my own podcast, which you have been on the B2B marketing and copywriting podcast and those are probably the best ways to reach me or the copy workshop, my website.
00:39:11:19 - 00:39:18:18
Speaker 1
Awesome. And Linda, for those that are listening but not watching, how do we spell your name so they find the right Linda malone?
00:39:19:03 - 00:39:43:14
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. M e l only not May, because Malone, this is the Italian version. Everyone spells it. Emma, thank you for that. Yeah. Even when I do my transcripts on all these different sites, they always spell it for wrong. And I'm trying to correct and. Yeah, and actually, if you if you Google my name, there's like no other Linda malone that shows up with that spelling, so you'll find me.
00:39:44:08 - 00:40:04:23
Speaker 1
Perfect and me with my thick California accent. I know that, you know, I does not understand me either. So I appreciate you so much for you know, being a guest on mine and then B, letting me be a guest on your podcast. So once again, please listen to her podcast as well. And thank you so much for listening.
00:40:04:23 - 00:40:14:13
Speaker 1
Please leave a review and come find us. And we just we clearly love to talk about these things. Let us hope you have a great weekend.