Here at Markigy, we’re all about blending science, creativity, and facts to develop efficient marketing strategies for the present and future… just like our friends at Mutiny! They're using a no-code AI platform to help B2B marketers maximize their efforts to drive demand into revenue.
Here at Markigy, we’re all about blending science, creativity, and facts to develop efficient marketing strategies for the present and future… just like our friends at Mutiny! They're using a no-code AI platform to help B2B marketers maximize their efforts to drive demand into revenue.
As a marketer, your biggest focus should be targeting your marketing spend and utilizing data to drive efficient marketing growth. It’s a simple formula, but it’s a constant learning process, right?
That’s why we brought in a B2B revenue expert who specializes in turning marketing spend right back into revenue. How? Through AI curated website experiences.
In this episode of Markigy Podcast, your host Leanne Dow-Weimer welcomes the CRO of Mutiny, Julio Bermúdez, to share his top must-know insights on using website personalization as a sustainable, customer-centric marketing strategy.
In this episode we discuss:
Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:
John Cutler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnpcutler
Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products by Nir Eyal: https://www.nirandfar.com/hooked
Meet the Host:
Leanne Dow-Weimer, Founder & Host of Markigy Podcast https://www.linkedin.com/in/leannedow
Meet the Guest:
Julio Bermúdez, Chief Revenue Officer at Mutiny
https://www.linkedin.com/in/julio-berm%C3%BAdez-5713761b
Links to content here:
Mutiny: https://www.mutinyhq.com
Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Markigy: The Science of Marketing Strategy in your favorite podcast player.
This episode was produced and brought to you by Reignite Media.
[00:00:00] Leanne: Welcome to Markigy the Science of Marketing Strategy, a biweekly podcast where all the cool marketers discuss their favorite marketing strategies. Study by study. On this show, we feature marketing risk takers who believe long-term wins for the customer. Equal long-term wins for the business. Two, how human led marketing, the combination of where science, creativity, and strategy meet, [00:00:30] or as we also like to call it Markigy.
Let's break down the marketing trends, myths, and methodologies together. I'm your host, Leanne Dow-Weimer. Let's go. Good morning. This is Leanne Dow-Weimer with Markigy, and I'm joined by Julio Bermudez. He is the CRO at Mutiny. He has a long history of experience in E2B SaaS. I would call him an expert and an investor, and a wonderful advisor.
Julio, thank you [00:01:00] so much for joining me. I'd love to hear from you. Just tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:01:04] Julio: Yeah, thanks for the intro. Very, uh, humbling. You know, it's, uh, it definitely has been sometimes I've been working in the digital product space, so I started off kind of my career working on an AB testing company, so we kind of helped launch a company called Optimizly.
A lot of people by now probably have heard about it, but when I started it was just a small group of us, kind of like in an apartment in San Francisco. Truly cliche kind of startup story. But we, you know, we started off by, uh, really thinking about how to, you know, [00:01:30] make data-driven decision making. And Dan Roker, the ceo, came off the Obama campaign and had this vision, and that's where I kind of got my start.
And so really cut my teeth on kind of helping marketers and product teams become more data-driven. And then that kind of continued on into to working for couple companies, most notably recently, uh, amplitude, where we literally. Help people make decisions with data. Actually, a lot of similar people came through from optimiz to the, the Amplitude.
And again, really what it was, is a passion for helping people build products in a way that's [00:02:00] really data driven and helping marketers, you know, truly make that leap from like, sort of like the sales led area, marketing led era into this now product led era. And so that, that's what brought me to where I am today.
Awesome. I
[00:02:12] Leanne: love the blend of creativity, science, and facts, right? And how they all intertwine. And that's kind of what we're about here at Market G. And so kind of that brings us to the next part of the, how they all blend together is can you explain to us what Mutiny is and, and maybe kind of [00:02:30] tone it down like we're five, but just tell us about like the ingredients and what makes it so
[00:02:33] Julio: special.
Yeah, so Mutiny is, uh, a pretty cool company. I just recently joined, I guess now it's been about four or five months. Time has flown by really fast. We're having a lot of fun over here. But, you know, essentially what Mutiny helps people do is personalize their websites. And so what we wanna do is be the centralized location for your marketing team to be able to personalize content to your audiences.
And so, of course, you know, a lot of people have different audiences serving [00:03:00] different segments, especially now it's really, really important because. You know, people are starting to flock towards maybe a more refined, you know, I C P because they're seeing things like churn and, you know, all different types of effects from the macro.
And so people are now starting to be really targeted with their spend, and that's what essentially MU allows you to do, which is drive efficient growth. So I was really excited to joining. I joined in the craziest time, of course, uh, to be a Chief revenue officer, where it's like, you know, all of a sudden the world's upside down and money's very expensive.
And so, you know, people are really scrutinizing [00:03:30] spend. But that's sort of the ethos here at Mutiny, which is to drive efficient marketing growth. And the way you do that, of course, is through, through data. So, yeah, so that's, that's a little bit about Muni.
[00:03:40] Leanne: Awesome. Awesome. So I like how you really touched on the different types of ICPs because in an earlier episode we talked about how you can personalize something based on a self-selection process for like, you know, e-commerce and things like that.
But when it comes to. Other kinds of [00:04:00] personalization. We haven't talked on that as much. So what are some ways that that mutiny kind of like helps an organization and their website be personalized? Like is it just like From my experience with it is it takes it beyond just the Hailey Ann, you're on my website.
Right? Like it's more sophisticated than that. Could you talk to us about that part?
[00:04:20] Julio: Yeah, so in the same van is like a really refined, you know, icp. We specifically are selling personalization to B2B companies, and I think that's [00:04:30] a really important distinction because B2C personalization is its own Harry beast.
I've tried to attack that couple times in my career. It's really difficult. I think AI is really gonna help with the scale problem. Happy to talk about that further later in the, uh, in the episode if you'd like. Double click on that. But essentially, you know, what we're doing is really targeting. People that are selling to other companies.
So number one, you kind of have a better idea of what will work and what techniques will help people personalize. Number two, an ICP [00:05:00] is actually even more important. I don't wanna say more important, but it's extremely important in a B2B sense, like in the way I described. Let's say that we're a company and we have.
You know, sort of a SMB or mid-market motion, those companies are under financial distress right now. A lot of them are closing business. They're, you know, having issues paying their bills, or they're just scrutinizing trying to save cash so they can make it through, you know, maybe 2024 or 2025 to fundraise again.
And those types of companies may not be the best customers. And so when we're talking about [00:05:30] icp, it's like, okay, great. Well is there a cus part of your customer base that you see in your data that. Doesn't churn, it's sticky. It has a high ndr, so net dollar retention, you know, somebody that's really making your, your firm money.
Like go get more of those. Right? And the problem with all seeing I from LinkedIn and Google is that, you know, you're, you're able to target people, but you know, essentially once they come to your website, It might as well say anything, or you know, maybe if you have something that's like a CMS that lets you do something cheesy like, Hey Leanne.
Right? Like that's not really effective. What's effective is getting the [00:06:00] right content. And so what Mutiny allows people to do is to take a look at that visitor, understand who they are, and we have a couple proprietary ways where we do that. And then we're able to. Serve up content to them. Now that content can be generated by you as a marketer, or you can utilize generative ai.
And that's another really big part of our company where we're actually helping marketers come up with the best copy utilizing generative ai. And we also help companies think through, you know, what part of your website should be personalized [00:06:30] based on that type of visitor. And we have all that data from our other customers.
And so essentially it's like having like an entire. Ai, you know, marketing team kind of help you, you know, figure out what to do. And then we have the ability to, you know, identify users with high resolution in order to make sure it's relevant for them.
[00:06:47] Leanne: Awesome. I mean, and that's not to be like a total like, you know, zealot, but like, that's what I love about this specifically is because one of the things that pisses me off is like when you have all this ad [00:07:00] spent and you're doing all this effort to, to get like that, That kind of connection and get them to try to convert to your website.
And then, you know, a lot of times I've been in the position where I'm like, look, I got you traffic. Mm-hmm. But what, what did you do with that traffic? Mm-hmm. Like, did you, did you convert your traffic? Like I had No, that wasn't under my umbrella. Yeah. And so, you know, something like this, I think is where it really creates a better feeling process for the buyer also, [00:07:30] because, you know, we know that it's gonna take them.
A gazillion or so touches, right. You know, generously speaking in order to move forward in their buying process. And so when they're able to get the content they need and they want, and it's served up, I, my understanding is that that would decrease the, the buying cycle because they're able to get what they need faster, which, you know, and then also it, it uplifts.
The traffic that you do get and the conversion
[00:07:59] Julio: rates there. [00:08:00] Totally, totally. And I think that a lot of the way people, you know, previously have thought about it was that like the money that we spent, like at the end of the day, like songs we're within certain, you know, costs of, you know, acquisition. We're like, we're fine.
But you're right, nobody's paid attention to conversion. Like we were yelling this off the rooftops. 10, 12 years ago, 2011 at, I was like looking at what the date is, 2023 right now. But, you know, so, so you know that that's something that's been, you know, has taken a decade to get to the point now where people are really [00:08:30] AB testing quite, quite frequently.
But even still, people aren't necessarily AB testing, just basic stuff or you know, what they're thinking about is just simply increasing. You know, conversion rates, right? Which is definitely important cause you wanna make sure that you're, you're growing. But you know, one thing that's also really important is that people that are coming to your website at all different parts of the life cycle.
So even if you're spending the money and you're getting them to come in, you know, they may not be in a buying cycle. They may already be a customer even. And depending on the content, so I'll tell you a quick [00:09:00] story, right? So we were looking at two different tools. One of the people on my customer success team was like, Hey, I'm thinking about, you know, buying this tool A and maybe, and we had, you know, some tool B, right?
And so I go to the website for, you know, tool B, and it didn't speak to me in any way about the problems we had, right? It was basically a generic website and it took me like two, three minutes to be like, okay, where's our use case? Do they actually help serve that? And like, I didn't have time to sit there right.
And do that. So I [00:09:30] basically was like, okay, cool. I guess it does, they don't do it. And so then we churned off their contract and we bought a new tool, right? And the whole reason why was because, I couldn't find the relevant information fast enough. And now that may sound punitive, but that's what's happening right now is that you're sitting there and everybody's looking at their budgets and looking at these line items and looking for where to cut, and you don't want your company to be one of those things that gets cut.
So it helps growth not only from an acquisition side, but I'm a zealot about retention. So you might, you might hear me come back to retention like a million times.
[00:09:56] Leanne: Yeah, but I mean, like, that's the point is, is that it's [00:10:00] cheaper to acquire and keep a customer than it is to churn
[00:10:03] Julio: them. Yeah, if you're just gonna try to grow through acquisition, it's gonna be very, very, very hard to grow, and you're gonna have to do what marketers have been doing in the past two years, which is throwing ungodly amounts of money at, you know, Google, Facebook, and LinkedIn.
And that just doesn't sustain as we see now. Now that money is like not, not as cheap. Yeah, I
[00:10:20] Leanne: mean it, it was never sustainable, but I kind of wanna come back to something you said about it being punitive. And I think that one thing is that, you know, that self-serve. [00:10:30] Now we are in a different generation, a different style, different communication.
You know, the world is more connected globally, and so there is an expectation of the information that you're searching for to be readily available at our fingertips. You know, we were kind of the first people that grew up with like, ask, do, use, ask Google. And, and so we're trained to just tippity tap looking for an answer and then get it back in milliseconds.
And that's something that, you know, I think going forward it's just gonna [00:11:00] become more and more, more of a bench, you know, expectations to start off with. And so, you know, it really is how business is done now without any fault, but it's sophisticated more now. So we've kind of talked about a couple things.
You mentioned, you know, ai, you mentioned data driven. One thing was that, you know, for me it's easy to be like, duh, of course this is a great idea, but what are some ways that maybe like I would [00:11:30] miss out or some way in some nuance that makes this, you know, more sustainable, long-term, customer-centric strategy that is just below the surface.
[00:11:41] Julio: Yeah. So again, like if we take a step back and just, you know, back off maybe the paid spend example I gave, which is pretty, you know, linear and, and pretty specific. And we think back to how can we help companies serve their customers better? The first thing you wanna do is you need to understand who they are and what they're doing and why they're there, right?
[00:12:00] And so we used to be able to do that pretty easily through UTM parameters and things like that. But increasingly now AI is. Actually deciding what copy is even going out there that's attracting. So now as though somebody who's a marketer, you know, people are coming to my website and I may not even, at least at first glance without doing some analysis, really uneven understand what was it that they clicked on that caused 'em to come.
Now, it's not to say that we can't at attribution, I mean, literally what was the tagline and the reason why is not based on the campaign, but [00:12:30] it's so that I can have a similar tagline on my website and that's not possible. Right? So we, of course we can do attribution right now, but we can't. Quickly identify someone, understand what they clicked on.
And then, you know, immediately serve them up relevant content. And so, again, if you go back to my example where I was a customer, right? And I'm looking to either spend more money or to churn or, you know, I'm starting to wanting to engage in, in some sort of like contracting conversation. I was not served properly, right?
And I, and so I was not the center of that. I was getting a generic thing. And so I think that what's really [00:13:00] important, you know, when you think about something like Mutiny is that. It's not just about how do we, you know, just get new customers, but it's like how are we actually serving them in their life cycle?
And that's something I used to talk a lot about at Amplitude was sort of like the death of the funnel where like that that acquisition funnel was, you know, increasingly getting expensive. And even if you acquire them, You're not actually paying attention to the bottom, which is like once they get into your product.
And then how do they expand over time? Because like what you described is like, you know, the change in [00:13:30] what people are expecting, people are now expecting, like people are having a hard time catching up to even just like the marketing, online marketing driven world where everything needs to be int uh, instantaneous.
And you know, the fact that business apps are now like, look like consumer apps and we have all these tastes and preferences for things to work quickly. But there's also the, the, the entire concept that. The product itself now needs to be the number one salesperson, needs to be the number one marketing person, right?
You're not necessarily just speaking to them on a website. And so once you get past that initial [00:14:00] acquisition is when life really begins. You know, with, with your company, at least if you're a SaaS company. But even if you're not a SaaS company, I would argue that every business is becoming a recur recurring business.
You can look at Amazon, they pioneered this, you know, when I had my first baby, I ordered diapers, and Amazon's like, do you want a subscription? It's like, yeah, great. Now I'm. I'm contributing to a r r right. Or r however you, you measure at your company. Right? And so they, they don't wanna turn me, they don't wanna lose me.
Right? Full vote. You can now like actually subscribe to a car. We [00:14:30] called it leasing back in the day, but they'll now let you change your car every month, right? BMW doing that. Tesla, you can actually subscribe to full self-driving. So, so essentially there's a convergence that's happening here, you know, around subscription revenue and that need to serve your customer post acquisition.
So again, if we take a step back and think about mutinies, like if we can get the right customers, give 'em the right. Content, help them through each of the points of their lifecycle. You're gonna essentially truly be customer-centric.
[00:14:58] Leanne: Yeah, absolutely. And there's a couple [00:15:00] things I'm like jotting down notes that you touched on there, and one of my first thoughts was that in this time of economic squeeze where companies need to find.
You know, more ways to bring in revenue is that something like this would inspire me to almost diversify or test my target ICPs, right? Because you can think about market expansion. You, if you're able to set up like a scenario where you know, if this, then that for a certain [00:15:30] icp, then you could be like, well, you know, we, we've had some use cases.
They were outliers. But let's test it. Let's see if we should go after more of that market. Let's test it in a way where we're not just throwing buckets of money into the ether. But the part that I liked the most about everything you said was life cycle. Because in previous episodes we've talked about demand generation throughout the entire funnel, like you know, from the top to the bottom.
And I, you know, when. One of the things that I love the most about recent [00:16:00] marketing strategies is the life cycle and the customer success managers. Mm-hmm. So I could see how this would be like super useful for them and then, My last thought about everything you said, cause you said so many great things.
So I, you know, please engage on any of these points, is that things are becoming more subscription based. I would argue that they were already subscription based. We just weren't trained to look at 'em like that. Right? Yeah. So like with the Volvo or the BMW example, it used to be the, like, [00:16:30] people would like pick a brand and like that's the hill they were gonna die on.
Mm-hmm. Like I'm a. BMW owner for my whole life. And you know, like that was, that was it. But, and so their subscription would be like every five years they would get a new vehicle from that one dealership. And that was their, their revolving revenue. It was just so much longer. But that's not exactly SaaS, right?
That's not how SaaS works. Yeah. No, no, but the, but the contracts length, you know, like you have a set amount of [00:17:00] time, either, you know, whether it's monthly or year or annually or, you know, for enterprise, those much larger term things. Being able to retain and, and keep the customer and then grow it. When you iterate and have new services or maybe you pivot or whatever happens, being able to keep them is, is huge for.
Keeping your business open.
[00:17:22] Julio: Yeah. So it's the best way to grow, right? Even if you have half the amount of acquisition, but you have a 15% better retention [00:17:30] that after three years should be twice the size of the other company. Right? So like, it's just the way that math ends up working, the compound nature of it, right?
It's just, you, you really gotta think about that. And there's a, there's a, there's a couple of, uh, Really great leaders out there, you know, that, that talk about this, that I've, you know, worked as, worked with one guy named John Cutler, really amazing product coach, and another guy named near AI, who wrote a book on habit forming products and habit forming products, talks a lot about that lifecycle.
Highly recommend anybody read that if they wanna start really deeply engaging with this. Yeah, [00:18:00]
[00:18:00] Leanne: definitely. And that's part of like where, you know, you can start to go off on a tangent about like habit forming and dopamine cycles and like the neuroscience of it, but that's, that's another episode. So to kind of like keep us moving forward in this conversation.
What were, you know, I, I kind of touched on people using this to diversify or outliers or strange use cases. What were some like unique or novel ways that you've seen people use.
[00:18:27] Julio: Yeah, I mean, I think that one of 'em that we didn't necessarily [00:18:30] anticipate was trying to understand their ICPs better. So because we have all that information to the website, some people didn't even rely, they'll, they'll look at an overall conversion rate, for example, right?
So they'll look at a main call to action, right? And it could be like a signup or a demo button or some, some, you know, pretty money making direct to pipeline, you know, action. And they're not even realizing that different segments are interacting with that button differently, right? And so, For example, like we could find out if like an SMB customer that works in manufacturing, you know, has a twice as [00:19:00] high likelihood to convert there compared to someone who is like in professional services.
That's an enterprise, right? And if you make more money off of enterprise professional services company, that means that call to action is actually a failure. But you may be thinking it's winning because you're being subsidized by the wrong segment. And so one of the things that Mutiny allows you to do is because we're identifying these visitors, you know, as they come in and we're looking at the conversion rates of them to serve them content, one of the byproducts of that, we can tell you what the conversion rate is by those, you know, those unique segments.
Right? And so I think that's pretty [00:19:30] interesting and that a lot of people are, again, you know, they're looking at like an overall generalized, you know, maybe segmented by channel, you know, conversion rates to make sure spend is. Working the, the right way, but to actually be able to identify your ICP through that is difficult today.
And um, that's one of the things that we're helping people do. And so that's kinda what we're talking about. Sort of like that exodus from sort of a certain ICP to a more stable industry is a big trend that I'm seeing right now where they're trying to double down on the companies that actually do retain.
Then you [00:20:00] look at your website and you go, oh my God, my website's not built for that. We can actually see it through the data. Now let's start putting some hypotheses out there and start testing 'em and start personalizing, you know, content to those people. Yeah,
[00:20:09] Leanne: absolutely. And you know the, the evolution of the ICP too, right?
Because it's never static. You can define the ICP you may have defined five years ago when you're like writing your pitch for your seed round, has. Dramatically changed, you know, through covid, through the economic changes and everything today. So you having that, that feedback [00:20:30] to iterate and say like, this is what's working, this is how it's evolving, I think is pretty significant for the rest of your, you know, the rest of the marketing that's occurring.
Right? Especially in the case where if you're, you have an audience and it's a button is a failure there, then you can find other opportunities.
[00:20:47] Julio: It's important to do that because you gotta understand that. You know that one size fits all, marketing strategy's not gonna work. And actually it's really inefficient to do that.
Yeah.
[00:20:54] Leanne: What's that saying? Like if you're speaking to everyone you're speaking to, no one. Yep. Yeah. Big [00:21:00] believer of that. So, let's see. I love this, this product so much. I love the future marketing and when it really gets to be like the better path. I don't know, that sounds like a little like snobby, but it's data driven.
It's coming at it from facts instead of just biases. And so, You know, it's it once again, trying not to be like, oh yeah, muttin is the best thing since, you know, sliced bread. And I know that, you know, we've got some bias here, but there's always a [00:21:30] situation where a strategy isn't the right fit. There's, you know, something may not be good for one type of thing, and there's always gonna be, you know, we're good at this, but not this.
What is that in this
[00:21:40] Julio: situation? Yeah. I mean, so again, I think there's two parts of it. Number one, You know, we're b2b, right? Right. And so B2C is a dramatically different beast, right? It's very hard. And frankly, getting harder to identify users and understand them and their behavior, their past behaviors in order to serve them relevant content, unless that data's first party.[00:22:00]
So it's very important to invest in something that's like that, you know, captures first party data, but gone are the days of like third party hato being, you know, shipped around everywhere and, and depending on countries and where your markets are, like it, it is just a minefield. Right? So for B2C, I think.
It's important to find ways to use first party data to serve up, you know, relevant experiences when it comes. So that's not something that, you know, mu mutiny really, really does. I think the other thing too is that, let's say that you are B2B and you have like really, really large contract sizes, [00:22:30] but very, very, very small.
You know, ICP for yourself in a very small market that you sell into like a niche market. You're not gonna get enough relevant data points to find any school significance. And so, and then if you divide that audience in these smaller or smaller segments, it becomes harder and harder to, to drive actual data, data-driven decisions out of that.
Right. So it's kinda like on the, on the extreme, so either one that you're selling to millions of people and like they, they're humans that are not businesses, it's a, a lot more difficult to identify them on, on [00:23:00] first visit. And then, you know, if you're, let's say you're selling to a very small audience.
You may not have an audience that you can slice and dice a million ways. And so therefore, like the data itself is not necessarily gonna be driven, you know, or not gonna drive decision making.
[00:23:13] Leanne: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's a really good call out is the statistical significance. And I think that that's something that a lot of marketers that aren't trained in data don't really think about.
Yeah. And you know, before we launch into the, the future of, you know, rev ops and [00:23:30] marketing and what it should be, you know, Data and, and understanding how to use it correctly and what's. Certain aspects of it are, you know, correlation versus causation and things like that. You know, my soapbox here is that I do think that marketers and leadership need to be trained on what that means.
Like, you know, it's not just like, oh yeah, you know, we had, we put out like five blogs this week, and so, you know, we saw an uplift. Well, did you like, that's not how that works. Exactly. Yeah. [00:24:00] Maybe that's a good question, but where, where do you think the future of marketing is going?
[00:24:05] Julio: Yeah, I think that, you know, if we, you know, depends on like how far in the future, right?
So if we look like over the next 3, 4, 5 years, you know, the money, expensive thing's not gonna go away. And you can see that there is sort of like, you know, a refactoring of businesses by and large, at least in B2B SaaS, right? And I think that that's gonna continue for at least, you know, the next year and a half.
But that doesn't mean that we don't still have growth goals. Right. I mean, even in our board meeting [00:24:30] we recently had, it was pretty funny. It was like, yeah, we don't need a growth three x, but we still need a growth two x. You know what I mean? So it's not like there's no growth. So I, I don't think that we're in a true like sky as falling situation, but we're gonna have to change up tactics.
And I think we're gonna have to really be specific about like, Who we're targeting, how we're targeting what channels work. So that puts a lot of pressure on the marketing team, which already had a lot of pressure, especially because depending on how the C-Suite is, you know, you know, put together, you know, we, we've recently seen that a lot of CMOs are reporting to a CRO [00:25:00] now.
Right. And so like now increasingly that, that, what that saying is that that seat at that table is harder and harder to get. And we're adding all this pressure of like, well, any bet you make better be right. And the CFO doesn't want to hear it. Right? Whether, you know, they spent, if you spent all these millions of dollars and like you said, well, did it cause uplift?
Because they're, that's the first, you know, gal that's gonna say that, you know, she's gonna be like, wait a second, where did this money go? Right? And so if you aren't data driven by default, it's just your, your job's gonna be really, really, really tough. And we, and we see this, You know, [00:25:30] as you know, companies are, are growing, you know, quite a bit over the past couple years.
Even in those high growth environments. You know, we've seen CMOs tenure, you know, just shortening and shortening, and part of that is because you know what people are looking for. Is that true? Like, did this really cause that, right? Or is it just correlated? Or if it's correlated, you know, how close are we to causal?
I'm like, there's a big difference there. And I'm not the kind of person that actually is like, Gonna be like, okay, everything has to be causal because you, you can't measure everything that way. It's like, it's a, like the don't [00:26:00] let perfect be the enemy of good enough. But if you don't have confidence in your story, then that's not gonna play well when you're, when you're in these conversations.
And so I do think that like the future of marketing, you know, is, even though it may seem to some people like, oh, we're already in that era, like the temperatures turned up quite a bit now. Because if you felt like you should be doing that, you knew you should be doing that, but you weren't doing that.
Like you're not gonna be able to, uh, to survive in it. And then if we look even farther, you know, I really do think that increasingly generative AI is going to play a [00:26:30] bigger and bigger part. I mean, you're already seeing like stories like Jasper and things like that, these companies that are just like exploding.
And I think they're exploding right now because of our curiosity, not because the application has truly been refined yet, like in terms of how we apply AI into our workflows and things like that. And, you know, that's one of the things that we're trying to tackle here at. I do think that that sort of. You know, how much is the, you know, machine, how much is the man?
You know, like where, where are we merging and like where, what is the ratio there still yet to be determined? And so I think that's a very interesting [00:27:00] path and, and I don't know if we're gonna be able to open that box and then put that genie back in the bottle, right? Whatever analogy you want to use.
Pandora's Box, the genie bottle. But like, it's, it's definitely coming and it's definitely gonna change, you know, quite a bit of things. And then lastly, I think like really like one of the biggest changes is gonna be that push towards. Product where the product really is number one marketing tool. It is the sales tool.
You know, we, we've seen these companies that have product led growth just explode. You know, I do think there's a lot of hype around it, but the idea is not [00:27:30] going away. That's gonna completely, you know, continue to change the way that we think about software companies and, and growth models. And so yeah, that's sort of like short, medium, and long term, you know, uh, thoughts that I have.
[00:27:40] Leanne: No, that's great. You know, I think that you mentioned a lot of things there. My thoughts on some of the AI that exists right now is that training it to do what you need out of it takes more time than just doing it yourself. From a very pragmatic point of view, you know, there's, there's a difference between [00:28:00] automation and trying to have it synthesize things and you know, the synthesization of accurate.
Like information or copy is where it needs a lot of supervision, or, you know,
[00:28:14] Julio: once you have one bad headline, you never trust it again, right? Yeah. So it's, it's difficult, but, and, and like, but the rate of that change is pretty astounding right now. Like it's, you know, I don't, you, you have a son, right? So go to Dolly and ask, ask it to draw some banana basketball players.
You know, that's what I did for [00:28:30] our kids. The rate of change is pretty aggressive right now.
[00:28:33] Leanne: Yeah, it, it's super impressive. It's the stuff that, you know, sci-fi is made out of from when we were, when we were like, you know, it's like 10, 15, 20 years ago and it's really cool. And I think that you were right, that it has sparked that curiosity and that's kind of the driver of growth there.
My last response to what you said was about products like growth and like the hype and, and kind of jumping off. And the thing about all of these different models is that they [00:29:00] always come back to the customer, right? Mm-hmm. Because if you aren't matching your product to the customer's needs, or you are matching everything to your target audience, then you have no one to buy it.
And so even though it's called product led growth or you know, whatever names that we're coming out with to rebrand things that we were already doing or growing it to a higher level of sophistication is that it does have to be a part of that holistic strategy that is gonna create growth from.[00:29:30]
Attracting customers and if you piss 'em off, then no one's there. Yeah. So, wow. We've talked through so many things at such a wonderful, like high level, and I, I super appreciate it. If someone wants to like, connect with you to find out more, what are some ways that they
can
[00:29:47] Julio: do that? Yeah, I mean definitely, you know, reach can reach out to me on LinkedIn.
You know, that's a big fast and easy way to get to me. And then, you know, like about my, my email address, that's another good way. I'm not, I'm not much of a Twitter guy. [00:30:00] Uh, things like that, I miss, I miss that boat and it's probably safe, safer for everybody that I'm not on Twitter out, but yeah. Uh, so LinkedIn's always the fastest and best way to get ahold of
[00:30:08] Leanne: me.
Great. Can you spell out your first and last name so that people know?
[00:30:12] Julio: Yeah. So yeah, I should have added my last name on my thing. So, uh, j u l i o and then my last name is, Bermudez, which is B E R M U D E Z.
[00:30:22] Leanne: Yeah, definitely. Wanna get, make sure it's a, it's a z not an s, so you gotta get the right one. Exactly.
Awesome, [00:30:30] awesome. Well, my name's Leanne and you can also find me on LinkedIn. It's under Leanne Dow and then Markigy m a r k i g y, which was my fun way of describing my. Specific brand of marketing. Thanks for listening and always remember to like, subscribe, and review.
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