In the alphabet soup of marketing’s many acronyms and initialisms, it’s all too easy for a marketer's message to get lost in translation. Joining the show today to spell out the true meaning of marketing is Peter Wheeler, proven innovator in GTM & product revenue growth. Learn about his entrepreneurial journey from starting his first business at the age of 16 to his many sales and marketing leadership roles throughout his career — and how he’s moving beyond the acronyms and initialisms to define product led growth in a more meaningful way. This episode explores how marketers can do more by leaning into empathy, better understanding their business and kicking their initialism habit to better define their goals and purpose
In the alphabet soup of marketing’s many acronyms and initialisms, it’s all too easy for a marketer's message to get lost in translation.
Joining the show today to spell out the true meaning of marketing is Peter Wheeler, proven innovator in GTM & product revenue growth.
Learn about his entrepreneurial journey from starting his first business at the age of 16 to his many sales and marketing leadership roles throughout his career — and how he’s moving beyond the acronyms and initialisms to define product led growth in a more meaningful way.
This episode explores how marketers can do more by leaning into empathy, better understanding their business and kicking their initialism habit to better define their goals and purpose
In this episode of Markigy, Peter and Leanne discuss:
The actionable takeaways mentioned in this episode are:
To learn more subscribe to Markigy with Leanne Dow-Weimer.
This episode was produced and brought to you by Reignite Media.
[00:00:00] Leanne: [00:00:05] Hey there, this is Leanne with Markigy. Today I'm joined by, uh, Peter [00:00:10] Wheeler. We met doing something called the GTM games as part of Hype Cycle, where [00:00:15] we competed and I didn't make it as far as Peter did, uh, [00:00:20] in, in the competition, but it was really cool. And my impression of you, Peter, [00:00:25] was that I could learn a lot from you.
[00:00:26] Leanne: So I'm really excited about today's conversation. And [00:00:30] if you could just tell us more about you.
[00:00:32] Peter: It's really complimentary. I appreciate [00:00:35] that. Me, me, what about me? [00:00:40] Serial entrepreneur that's been all over the place. Um, majority of [00:00:45] my work has been around sales, marketing, and partnerships. I [00:00:50] started my first business when I was 16.
[00:00:53] Peter: I still have that business license [00:00:55] hanging in the storage area in my basement, but hung proudly. early in [00:01:00] a space for drop shipping from the internet. And this was in [00:01:05] 99. So, yeah, I've been doing this a very, very, very [00:01:10] long time. Been across a bunch of different industries. Alcohol, we [00:01:15] call that the beverage industry.
[00:01:16] Peter: I gave birth to a beer for Miller Coors, uh, did [00:01:20] Dolby's first consumer facing campaign since 55, launched Lifestyle for BMW after [00:01:25] sales. Um, and I've been in tech the past eight [00:01:30] years.
[00:01:30] Leanne: I love that you gave like the, the [00:01:35] cereal. kind of ness of it because that really, I think, gives you a perspective, [00:01:40] uh, that people that are just kind of entrenched in an internal role may or may not have, [00:01:45] and especially if they don't have The experience across different industries.
[00:01:49] Leanne: So like, if you've been [00:01:50] in tech and your whole career has, has only been in the past eight years, your, your [00:01:55] POV would be different than if you saw the similarities between [00:02:00] B2B, B2C, like hospitality, beverage, lifestyle, all the things. Um, [00:02:05] and I think that that kind of helps us get to, you know, I think that's a good segue [00:02:10] to kind of talking about what we're going to talk about and when.
[00:02:14] Leanne: We [00:02:15] met last, we talked about, like, the acronym alphabet soup, and, um, [00:02:20] you know, the way that I want to take this today is, like, there's this debate [00:02:25] about wanting to skip, like, ideologies or systems and only work in the [00:02:30] tactics, but my question to you is, do you think that they need both, [00:02:35] or that strategy is just how you execute any of the acronyms?[00:02:40]
[00:02:40] Leanne: That we see floating around or or let's kind of like pick it apart.[00:02:45]
[00:02:47] Peter: Okay, I'm in. I'm in. [00:02:50] Absolutely
[00:02:51] Leanne: So, um, you know, let's let's just kind of [00:02:55] think about the the top little acronyms is that [00:03:00] I I hate I I think it's an important differentiator, but still kind of trivial [00:03:05] is is B to B verse B to C Right. So my [00:03:10] thing that I think is that they're more blended than they're not.
[00:03:14] Peter: [00:03:15] Okay. Okay, and you know, we're [00:03:20] actually playing with initialisms. That's a term that I got to learn this morning as far as acronyms go. It's the [00:03:25] acronym where you're pronouncing the letter. Yeah, kind of neat. Um, kind [00:03:30] of neat, I guess. Why did I say it was kind of neat? Because it's not. [00:03:35] Former English major, thrice college dropout.
[00:03:37] Peter: So maybe that's why I find it neat. But um, [00:03:40] At one time, I will, [00:03:45] I will advocate, here we go, hill or die on game, I will advocate [00:03:50] for, uh, B2B and B2C when first [00:03:55] built, when first ideated, [00:04:00] made sense as separate units, just like you could say business to [00:04:05] enterprise now, and maybe that's where the consumption of B2B into B2C [00:04:10] is coming from, um, in my history I've worked in the tri [00:04:15] sector model, um, Meaning, uh, private sector, which I think we're all [00:04:20] familiar with because we're participants in.
[00:04:22] Peter: The non profit sector, [00:04:25] and then also the public sector, which is government across anything. From [00:04:30] federal civilian, like the Parks Department, and I think NASA. All the way through [00:04:35] Department of Defense and Intelligence Community, and county government. So, yeah, I [00:04:40] think that, uh, verticals are often needing to be distinguished, [00:04:45] and historically that made sense.
[00:04:47] Peter: But I will say that there are some new acronyms that are blurring [00:04:50] that
[00:04:50] Leanne: line. My experience for companies that are blended, you know, uh, with [00:04:55] one company being blended in itself and then working across different ones, [00:05:00] um, that at the end of the day, it's people, right? And, [00:05:05] and you can't reinvent... how people operate, [00:05:10] um, just because of their role.
[00:05:13] Leanne: But, and so to me, [00:05:15] the, the idea that, you know, people need to [00:05:20] understand people as the premise and then go through the next [00:05:25] stages of, of how do I approach this problem and how do I solve it and then, [00:05:30] then they should start considering some mix or fluid [00:05:35] Uh, combination of different pieces of the acronym suit that we, [00:05:40] we see as like GTM motion or PLG or sales led or community [00:05:45] growth or ABM or this or that, um, that it kind of needs to take [00:05:50] a few steps back and start at the foundation.[00:05:55]
[00:05:55] Peter: Okay. Um, there's one thing that people keep trying to [00:06:00] acronym and they can't, which is jobs to be done. JTBD. Nobody seems to be [00:06:05] able to fire that one off. And I, I truly, I'm, I'm falling back in with [00:06:10] you on that one. That's where, uh, buyer empathy comes into play. [00:06:15] We are now, we are now selling and marketing to resolution [00:06:20] of an issue.
[00:06:21] Peter: And I'm excited about that. I think the, the [00:06:25] beyond the benefit of acronyms disappearing and [00:06:30] smushing together, we've got this new. Uh, the term that I've been hearing a lot more [00:06:35] lately, and it's not a new term, it's just, I've been around the right kind of people is empathy and [00:06:40] buyer empathy, which has, um, helped in the [00:06:45] messaging where you're not trying to sell a feature to a technical decision maker.
[00:06:49] Peter: And you're trying to sell a [00:06:50] price point to a business decision maker. And you're explaining all these returns. The return is [00:06:55] I have a frequent thorn in my foot. I don't want a thorn in my foot [00:07:00] anymore. And you know, in automotive, we would always go. [00:07:05] We would advertise against like how quickly service could be done or how inexpensive [00:07:10] service could be done.
[00:07:10] Peter: But what the customer was looking for was a vehicle that could get them [00:07:15] to and from work. So how quickly you could do something or how inexpensively you could do [00:07:20] something was completely irrelevant if the vehicle wasn't doing what they had expected it to do. And I think [00:07:25] that's why everybody started migrating into warranties and.
[00:07:29] Peter: length of [00:07:30] life of the vehicle. And I see that a lot in tech because I think we're [00:07:35] talking mostly about tech right now. We're not talking about retail or beverage. [00:07:40]
[00:07:40] Leanne: It doesn't have to be. I think it's pretty open ended. Um, I see. It's [00:07:45] funny because on a previous episode, uh, with a B2B SaaS is I [00:07:50] said that automotive was the original subscription model and that it was based [00:07:55] on brand affinity and loyalty.
[00:07:57] Leanne: And, and if you listen to a [00:08:00] lot of pop culture music or country music, they reference [00:08:05] specific brands, automotive brands, as if it's part of their identity.
[00:08:08] Peter: No, one of the arguments I've always made [00:08:10] with people is that buyers refuse to be educated at some point. And that point is comfort. [00:08:15] Uh, I can't tell you how many times somebody has told me that their cell phone is [00:08:20] better than mine or told me that their provider is better than mine.
[00:08:23] Peter: And I ask for [00:08:25] qualitative, quantitative, any form of proof that that's the [00:08:30] case. And even anecdotal, [00:08:35] there's nothing there because there's no comparison. Like I've been with this provider for 10 years. I [00:08:40] bought this model of phone every time the new release happens. on a regular basis for those same 10 [00:08:45] years.
[00:08:45] Peter: So there's no, um, perspective. And [00:08:50] what's, what I'm starting to see that's really cool is that [00:08:55] consumers are using that style, that perspective of [00:09:00] others in a way that a good referral is worth a thousand [00:09:05] hours of research. And a lot of it is because [00:09:10] it's more than just, this is what I've always had. And going, going into [00:09:15] automotive, it's, this is what I've always had.
[00:09:17] Peter: And this particular car has great memories. [00:09:20] This particular car was reliable. This particular car suited every need we had and [00:09:25] the manufacturer was able to augment and adjust and provide a different model that handled the [00:09:30] next evolution of what we had going on. And I think that's the same thing with.[00:09:35]
[00:09:35] Peter: with properly done SaaS and we've never, as marketers [00:09:40] especially, we have an obligation these days in the marketing process to [00:09:45] be full cycle. We can't do tofu, tofu work anymore because [00:09:50] honestly we're running out of customers to prospect to and [00:09:55] If the customer care isn't great, if the documentation [00:10:00] isn't great, if the experience is not the same as you promised as a marketer or [00:10:05] that was, um, signed off on by a salesperson, [00:10:10] you're going to lose them and you're going to have the only thing worse than an [00:10:15] unhappy customer is a vocal unhappy customer.
[00:10:18] Peter: So, yeah. [00:10:20] I hear you. I'll stick with that analogy.
[00:10:22] Leanne: Yeah. Um, it reminds [00:10:25] me of something that, uh, you know, I've heard people that I work with say is that, and I've taken it to [00:10:30] heart, is we don't want to just piss off a wider swath of people with our marketing. We don't want to [00:10:35] just, you know, we, we have to be integrated to, to know what they're going to be delivered [00:10:40] so that we can accurately portray it and so that, you know, we aren't getting all that blowback [00:10:45] that could have potentially happened.
[00:10:49] Leanne: And then in group [00:10:50] reviews that we, you know, if we're managing social media or we're managing the contact us box, like, [00:10:55] you know, we're the ones that, that if it's not sales that gets it, it's us, or, you know, [00:11:00] customer service, it's, it's, it, we, we are involved with the complaint.[00:11:05]
[00:11:06] Leanne: So, sticking with, [00:11:10] or coming back to this alphabet soup idea, let's, [00:11:15] let's kind of think about, you know, how do we [00:11:20] define some of these acronyms, and if, if the lines are so blurred between all these things, [00:11:25] can we even make these lines? Um, and, and [00:11:30] I, Recall, I love the moment where, you know, you, [00:11:35] we were talking about, um, having, you know, like an acronym and me [00:11:40] saying what I thought it was and you saying what you thought it was.
[00:11:41] Leanne: And you're like, no, no, no. It would have been my fault as a marketer for [00:11:45] not setting you up for success.
[00:11:47] Peter: Um, I think Tam was the instance [00:11:50] that we had. And you went total addressable market and I went technical account manager. Yeah,
[00:11:54] Leanne: [00:11:55] it could be, you know, um, There's, there's so many of those, but um, I [00:12:00] also like it when people have a, say something clever or fun to like make fun of it.
[00:12:04] Leanne: You know, I think that's [00:12:05] a, that's some of my favorite memes. Um, but [00:12:10] as far as like defining some, what are some that you think are poorly defined as [00:12:15] far as like in the alphabet soup that's like really trending right now that you, that you would like [00:12:20] say, Hey guys, this is what this should mean, and this is what it does mean.[00:12:25]
[00:12:25] Peter: Oof. The, the, the area that I see issue in is new [00:12:30] acronyms and things like, what [00:12:35] happens is everybody uses the same words. It's not like total addressable market [00:12:40] and technical account manager. It is things like PLG. [00:12:45] I think everybody agrees it's product led growth. What product [00:12:50] led growth means to different organizations is many.
[00:12:53] Peter: different things. Some look at it [00:12:55] as a 14 day free trial that leads into some sort of [00:13:00] enterprise sale, and that's exclusively what they do, or they look at it [00:13:05] as some sort of freemium model where they're selling add ons persistently, or that is a [00:13:10] scale up style situation, and it's kind of like [00:13:15] religion.
[00:13:15] Peter: Everybody's right in their own perception and the way that they pursue it, but you don't [00:13:20] necessarily have to agree with it, understand it, or have a taste for it. And [00:13:25] community led growth is that way, really anything that's led growth right now is that way. [00:13:30] Um, and what's sad is a lot of [00:13:35] organizations are adopting a new acronym to [00:13:40] try and display that they're, they're an innovator.
[00:13:42] Peter: So when you have software as a service and platform as a [00:13:45] service, okay, great. Now we're going to add like data platform as a service. No, it's a completely different [00:13:50] pillar. It's a completely different tier. We're, we're not at all the same as that. Customer platform as a [00:13:55] service. No, folks. It's like [00:14:00] we don't drill down with acronyms.
[00:14:01] Peter: We drill down with results. And so, yeah, I [00:14:05] think all new acronyms, I think we've, I think we've run out of them. Like they say, there's no such thing as a new song. [00:14:10] I think we've run out of acronyms and right now we just do things so we can toss them on the tail end of our [00:14:15] resume and recruiters know what to look for.
[00:14:16] Peter: And. Reminds me of what, eight years [00:14:20] ago when growth hacker became real big. And you know, the [00:14:25] acronym acronym for that at this point is just hack. It was, however, an organization could [00:14:30] find somebody to do three jobs, the cheapest way possible, mostly digital. Like, [00:14:35] if you disagree with me on what, if that's what a growth hacker means, feel free to hit me up on any channel [00:14:40] you can find me on.
[00:14:41] Peter: Um, but yeah, that's, that's where we're at. [00:14:45] Yeah. I mean,
[00:14:46] Leanne: and I think that, you know, [00:14:50] uh, One of the things that we talked about before, too, was like, is the premise the problem? [00:14:55] And when you say something like, you know, the organization is now trying to cram three jobs [00:15:00] into this trendy title, the premise of how business is done [00:15:05] is...
[00:15:06] Leanne: That's part of the problem that creates the new trending [00:15:10] acronyms. Now, do I think we're at the end of the acronyms? Oh man, I'm sure there's someone out [00:15:15] there that's going to find a new one. Or they're just going to reinvent the wheel, you know, and just put a new [00:15:20] spin on, you know, something. And especially with [00:15:25] AI, so now we're probably going to have an AI acronym that we haven't previously had.[00:15:30]
[00:15:31] Leanne: Much to everyone's pain. [00:15:35] So, you know, I, I keep looking over at my, like, list [00:15:40] of prompts because before every episode I try to keep myself on track. Uh, one of the things, [00:15:45] you know, that, that I try to investigate is what are the risks [00:15:50] of, of doing certain things? And so, from what you just said, it sounds [00:15:55] like that some of the risks of...
[00:15:57] Leanne: Reusing acronyms or just [00:16:00] continuing to interpret it without one standard [00:16:05] definition, you know, is part of the game, it's part of what life is, but it's also [00:16:10] where the risk comes because if, if a company [00:16:15] says that they are, um, you know, they're, they're doing a [00:16:20] PLG and they're looking for investors and they use the acronym wrong and they, they turn off investors, then [00:16:25] maybe they don't, They don't get the investments or they get angry investors, [00:16:30] which is almost as bad as no investors.
[00:16:33] Leanne: Um, so what [00:16:35] are some of the other risks about like just our work as marketers with being [00:16:40] too gung ho or, or not using the acronyms [00:16:45] or, you know, Just any of it that you see.
[00:16:49] Peter: I mean, the [00:16:50] whole purpose of an acronym is to be lazy. So, right there, [00:16:55] right there. We are intentionally being [00:17:00] lazy. And then you have to step up this whole other situation of [00:17:05] defining what your version of that particular acronym happens to be.
[00:17:09] Peter: I was on a [00:17:10] show this morning. Where Corporate Social Responsibility, [00:17:15] CSR, was the category that all these social impact professionals were in. [00:17:20] And there was a little lift over the past year, year and a half, where it switched to [00:17:25] CSI. And almost everybody [00:17:30] agrees that it's Corporate Social Impact. And this morning I heard Corporate Social [00:17:35] Innovation.
[00:17:35] Peter: And I'm like, well this is new to me. And what's the difference? Because [00:17:40] to me, innovation means that there's new changes, that there's new [00:17:45] ways of doing it, that we're working around the lumbering incumbent. And that [00:17:50] impact could very well mean that, but mostly that we're doing it the best way [00:17:55] possible, given what we currently have.
[00:17:56] Peter: So[00:18:00]
[00:18:00] Peter: that acronym right there was confusing, falling back to product led growth. I [00:18:05] have certain ways that I perceive it. If I have to verify my email address, I'm not in a PLG. system. [00:18:10] If I have to put in credit card information before I even start the trial, because they're going to start auto billing [00:18:15] me at the end of the trial, I'm not in a PLG system.
[00:18:17] Peter: I don't view them that way. [00:18:20] So by using those terms, [00:18:25] I've created additional work. And with PLG, you can fall back to there is a self [00:18:30] service. Product and there is an enterprise product and self service by self service. We mean at three [00:18:35] o'clock in the morning You get a wild hair or you can't sleep because you're facing a problem.
[00:18:39] Peter: You [00:18:40] research like crazy you find the solution We're the solution you swipe your credit card. Everything's [00:18:45] good. You pass out wake back up at 8 a. m. And pick up where you left off Boom! Self service. That's probably [00:18:50] where PLG should be. That's where I think it should be. Um, but I don't think other [00:18:55] people agree with that.
[00:18:57] Peter: They, they see it differently. [00:19:00] So where, where we get into is laziness causes confusion. Confusion causes anger. [00:19:05] Just like you said, angry investors. You have angry consumers. You have angry constituents. [00:19:10]
[00:19:10] Leanne: You've got angry employees because they don't know what they're doing?
[00:19:13] Peter: Well, that, that [00:19:15] one always cracks me up.
[00:19:16] Peter: When I got started in the space, a lot of, uh, salespeople will [00:19:20] refer to things as the journey. When they were selling to people and [00:19:25] I just loved it. It was such a good twisting of words and [00:19:30] I had asked, what specifically are you meaning by that? When you're talking to a, to a [00:19:35] prospect and telling them, you know, you're going to go on this, this particular company was a geospatial [00:19:40] journey.
[00:19:40] Peter: So it made it even more like amazing. It was geospatial tech [00:19:45] and oh my goodness, mispronouncing [00:19:50] acronyms, geospatial is GIS. And you're supposed to [00:19:55] pronounce it like initialism. A lot of people pronounce it [00:20:00] like a GIF, a GIF would be pronounced, but instead of a [00:20:05] hard F it's a hard S so it's is at the end [00:20:10] and that's pretty hilarious in its own right, but I'd ask them what this, um, [00:20:15] geospatial journey is and they'd throw it out there.
[00:20:19] Peter: They'd throw people under the [00:20:20] bus. We can't trust engineering to do [00:20:25] what is on the roadmap. So we're giving the customer a heads up. [00:20:30] We don't think that marketing is telling the whole story. So we're giving them a heads up [00:20:35] and I need to sell 80 percent of the product for a hundred percent of the price.[00:20:40]
[00:20:40] Peter: So I'm doing what I need to do for me. And sure it's, it's twisting vernacular, but that's [00:20:45] all, that's all it was. That's all it is. And, um, Do I [00:20:50] agree with it? Absolutely not. It's where, uh, I developed a severe [00:20:55] distaste for calling your customers partners. That's, I've noticed that everybody calls their customer a [00:21:00] partner, and I have yet to find a partner in my non [00:21:05] professional life that is willing to pay me to half ass things until they're [00:21:10] maybe right down the line.
[00:21:13] Peter: And so stop calling them [00:21:15] partners, call them customers, treat them properly, and don't sell them on a journey. Sell them exactly what they've got. [00:21:20] Anyway, I really went off on a tangent there. No, um, Importance of [00:21:25] language, accurate language. Well,
[00:21:26] Leanne: and, and while you're talking, I'm like, man, I missed the biggest [00:21:30] opportunity because it's Peter led growth.
[00:21:33] Leanne: We could just like, who knows what PLG [00:21:35] means? It could be, it could be Peter led growth. It could be products led [00:21:40] growth. So, um, I had to call that out. Um, cause you know, it, it, it proves your point. [00:21:45] Um, you know, so there, there's plenty of risks and, and mostly at the [00:21:50] end of the day, the biggest risk is. is anger, distress, [00:21:55] and negative negativity, right?
[00:21:56] Leanne: That in any way, shape, or form, anything that we do, the [00:22:00] that's always some sort of risk. So, you know, [00:22:05] there's there's plenty of room for being misunderstood. And, you know, [00:22:10] I think what it comes back to is that people need to [00:22:15] understand Marketing 101 instead of understanding [00:22:20] Because it's hard to understand, or almost impossible, if they don't have the foundation of how [00:22:25] to, what marketing is, what it does, the, the, you know, the [00:22:30] intrinsic qualities of it.
[00:22:31] Leanne: And they try to make marketing sales, or they try to [00:22:35] make marketing, you know, there's different things in different channels, [00:22:40] not T shape, that are all a part of marketing, but there are some things that are just their own thing. [00:22:45] And when you don't understand what's its own thing and what's [00:22:50] not and what is part of the tea and that there's different things, is you try to just smush [00:22:55] things and you make some sort of Frankenstein thing that's, that's not, you know, it's like having to swipe your [00:23:00] credit card or it's, it's, it turns into something else.
[00:23:04] Leanne: [00:23:05] Um. And, and I guess part of what I [00:23:10] would like to see happen, and I don't have an answer for this, of how we [00:23:15] incorporate teaching and educating and like intellectualizing strategy [00:23:20] for our marketers within organization as it's happening and, [00:23:25] and getting those results that, that we have to get, um, how do we [00:23:30] get people to understand marketing one on one?
[00:23:32] Leanne: And, and metrics,
[00:23:33] Peter: it's bad metrics. You have to [00:23:35] step backwards from all of that. A lot of people get into marketing because. [00:23:40] They couldn't find anything better to do. So that's almost all of us. But, um, [00:23:45] people fall in love with the Don Draper. People fall in love with the Emmeline Parris. They, they [00:23:50] want to be that person.
[00:23:51] Peter: They think that they're, they can be the center of the room. They can carry the ball, [00:23:55] whatever colloquialism we want to use. Um, [00:24:00] and that it's theirs and that they can holistically have it. Now, as a generalist myself, [00:24:05] as someone that often jokes, I do the work of five for the price of two, but no one pays my going rate, [00:24:10] I'll back that up.
[00:24:11] Peter: I'll say that, but that type of individual is actually an entrepreneur. And that's, [00:24:15] that's what they need to focus on. In marketing in general, [00:24:20] most leaders of marketing have not been in marketing. [00:24:25] They've been in some facet. Uh, they've probably been a salesperson. They've probably [00:24:30] been in finance and migrated over being a CRO, but they haven't been [00:24:35] a trench marketer.
[00:24:36] Peter: And it's very hard because it's such an evolving field [00:24:40] that. What you learned coming up in the ranks [00:24:45] doesn't even apply anymore to what you do now. I was [00:24:50] rewriting a case study of mine from a campaign I did in 2019 and the whole thing I'm going [00:24:55] through, it was a phenomenal campaign. Phenomenal.
[00:24:58] Peter: Generated eight figures of [00:25:00] pipeline, seven figures of closed one new business. It cost 13, 000 to do. [00:25:05] Phenomenal campaign. Couldn't get it. The whole time I'm writing it and I'm going through what the [00:25:10] metrics were and what the tech stack used was and how we did sourcing and scouting and everything [00:25:15] else.
[00:25:15] Peter: I'm cringing. There's not a single moment where I'm like, why did we use that? Oh, cause this other thing that I would have [00:25:20] used was not available back then. So. If that's where my marketing growth had [00:25:25] stopped, and I became a leader at that point, then I'm just falling back to the decisions of others. [00:25:30] And those others are people that I'm saying, we gotta get more top of funnel.
[00:25:33] Peter: And then there's a sales line, [00:25:35] sales people coming in, I need more pipe. Yes, we're focusing [00:25:40] on the wrong metrics. We're focusing on the wrong solutions. And, within marketing, we're pitting [00:25:45] teams against each other. We've got brand who completely impedes [00:25:50] the ability to put out good copies. Because in almost every organization I've ever [00:25:55] touched in the, Oh God, I'll take that back.
[00:25:58] Peter: Every single [00:26:00] organization that I've ever worked with in 20 years of doing this [00:26:05] has had moments, if not complete, uh, [00:26:10] Business build around design drives copy. [00:26:15] So if you have a white paper going out and the headline needs to be 55 characters [00:26:20] and your opening paragraph is 280 words at the very most, and you [00:26:25] can't actually write the copy that the consumer needs because brand doesn't feel that the copy is [00:26:30] pretty.
[00:26:32] Peter: Oof. Oof. And brand, [00:26:35] I've, I've never kept it a secret. I don't understand brand, so I've never been a big [00:26:40] fan of brand, even though I've got multiple brands. Um, [00:26:45] I'm sorry, brand being so in charge. That's what I don't understand. [00:26:50] Um, it shouldn't be in control of that kind of thing. [00:26:55] Brand is this distraction.
[00:26:56] Peter: When you don't hit your metrics, then you do a new logo. When [00:27:00] you. You know, you need this big corporate event to show off something and that [00:27:05] something was a missed product launch. I see the value of brand in there. It's the sleight of hand, [00:27:10] but it can't be your leader, but just, just like that, your business [00:27:15] content, your product marketing, the copy from there can't be your leader either.
[00:27:19] Peter: You [00:27:20] need customer service input. You need net promoter scores. You need all these things. Every team has its [00:27:25] own special set of metrics. And it's the global metrics that are [00:27:30] causing the problem. So many marketing teams are focusing on, like, how many [00:27:35] emails can we get, how many signups can we get, as opposed to five steps further [00:27:40] down the line.
[00:27:41] Peter: How many of those signups converted into something? How many of those signups, [00:27:45] like, stayed live longer than 24 hours? That didn't just [00:27:50] unsubscribe after we sent them their Uber Eats card from our ABM campaign. Um, [00:27:55] Yeah, I think, I think leadership, not understanding the tools, the [00:28:00] product. I've been in so many organizations where people that are bleeding marketing and sales actually don't know the tech that they're [00:28:05] selling and marketing for.
[00:28:06] Peter: Um, Ooh, American auto on NBC is a great example [00:28:10] of that. The brand new CEO, and she doesn't even know how to drive a car. [00:28:15] Yeah, I am once again going off on a tangent, but I feel you gave me a safe [00:28:20] space to say very unpopular things.
[00:28:22] Leanne: Yeah, I love tangents. That's what, that's why there's prompts [00:28:25] and not a script.
[00:28:25] Leanne: There we
[00:28:26] Peter: go. So we'll get into that as well. Sales Marketing Blend. [00:28:30]
[00:28:30] Leanne: Well, yeah, I mean, here's, here's the thing is that like, while you're talking about brand [00:28:35] is that I define brand, not an acronym, but just a [00:28:40] component of the T differently than you do. To me, what you're describing is the design [00:28:45] you're, you're describing the, the fonts and colors and, and the, the [00:28:50] fluffy stuff that matters, very important, but fluffy stuff.
[00:28:54] Leanne: And, and to me. [00:28:55] Brand, all of these things in the tea need to be integrated with each other and brand [00:29:00] is a personality. It's more dimensional than just [00:29:05] copy and design. It's the integration. It's the blend throughout the [00:29:10] entire process of the personality, the tone, the positioning, the [00:29:15] word choice, the colors, and, and how they all interplay with each other and mingle [00:29:20] and become.
[00:29:21] Leanne: Um, and so I agree that static brand, when we [00:29:25] care more about making sure that we have a blue box here and, uh, you [00:29:30] know, this Google font there and this, you know, many characters just for the sake of this many [00:29:35] characters is flawed. But when we integrate, just like if we [00:29:40] integrate demand gen or we integrate any of these things at all stages of the marketing [00:29:45] foundations and we blend them and we stop siloing them, it can be [00:29:50] so powerful.
[00:29:53] Leanne: It
[00:29:53] Peter: goes [00:29:55] across all disciplines, but my claims to fame, all the pictures behind me, my [00:30:00] best stories are from events and experiential. Yeah. And [00:30:05] people hear that and they go, Oh, wow, lucky you. You get to stand in a trade show booth with short shorts and hand out [00:30:10] flyers all day and then run up a big bar tab.
[00:30:12] Peter: And that's, Oh, I wish [00:30:15] neither of those things actually happen. Oh boy, me and short shorts. [00:30:20] Anyway, that's, you know, it's crazy if we [00:30:25] have disdain for each other within an organizational unit and in seeing [00:30:30] where the conflict is there and introducing one of the most painful. acronyms to [00:30:35] that team now. Our BDRs, our MDRs, or as most of us call them [00:30:40] now, the lowercase XDRs.
[00:30:42] Peter: Because everybody's going to throw a new letter in the front. [00:30:45] How? I mean, number one, that's the most abused role in any [00:30:50] organization. You, you take someone that's fresh out of nowhere and give them some [00:30:55] scripts and toss them into shark infested waters to do the hardest part about prospecting [00:31:00] and hand off deals to AEs that are either interested or not interested without any [00:31:05] kind of explanation of what, why they would or would not be interested.
[00:31:09] Peter: And you [00:31:10] expect your XDR team to take. phenomenal and immaculate notes and review their own [00:31:15] calls and get so many dials in per hour and then hand it off to your sales [00:31:20] team who maybe writes two words, maybe spins up an opportunity, maybe does [00:31:25] nothing. And now that person's in marketing.[00:31:30]
[00:31:32] Leanne: Don't tell my life story how I started off having to [00:31:35] make cold calls and now I'm in marketing. Cause I was like, man, I would just rather make this job easier for [00:31:40] everybody. Um, I, I, Enjoy the part where [00:31:45] I'm not the person getting hung up on or cussed at or, or feeling, uh, [00:31:50] like I'm standing in a booth just shouting at strangers to talk to me and they don't want to talk to me.[00:31:55]
[00:31:55] Leanne: Um, you know, I, I, when you come from sales and I think [00:32:00] I think there should be take your marketer to work day and take your salesperson to work day. [00:32:05] And just like there used to be take your daughter to work day, I hope that still happens, or child, but where [00:32:10] they shadow you and they see what it is you actually contribute [00:32:15] because that's where I think the, one of the blocks to collaboration is, is that [00:32:20] no one knows what each other's jobs really are.
[00:32:24] Leanne: They just know [00:32:25] that they're trying their hardest and maybe, you know, [00:32:30] Somewhere down the line or up the line, it's just not working the way that it should. [00:32:35] And that's why I think sales and marketing are, are, should be blended [00:32:40] too, too aligned, right? There, there's some, there needs to be some [00:32:45] separation.
[00:32:45] Leanne: They should
[00:32:45] Peter: have empathy. Let's, let's not blend them. They should be empathetic of each other. And [00:32:50] that's having been in both of those seats, [00:32:55] been a sales manager, been sales on the floor, been CMO, [00:33:00] I've been, you know, interim head of, on, on many different things. [00:33:05] And the, the commonality. You [00:33:10] get them both in the same room and you let them say their piece at the exact same time, you're going to have two [00:33:15] voices that say, you don't support me.
[00:33:19] Peter: Not you don't [00:33:20] understand me, not we can't get along, not we're on a different path, but you don't support [00:33:25] me. I was joking with Trevor Van Warden. If you don't know him, he's, he's a great guy. He's got a [00:33:30] bunch of these live shows and just a very interesting fellow. And he's been [00:33:35] around for a very long time across multiple industries and he's a sales guy.
[00:33:39] Peter: [00:33:40] But he was joking with me. He says, you want an unpopular opinion you can say in a, in a public place? I [00:33:45] said, sure. He says, don't, don't quote me on this. Because there's [00:33:50] nothing more dangerous than a prospecting AE. I agree. It's like, it is a, [00:33:55] it's a bull in a, in a nursery. [00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Leanne: I can visualize that so quickly. Um.
[00:34:03] Peter: It's morbid. But yeah, that's what an, [00:34:05] that's what a prospecting AE is. It's funny because he and I both come from the prospecting AE world. And then we're [00:34:10] marketers and then we're A's again and then we're marketers again and then A's again and we see why [00:34:15] it's not good.
[00:34:18] Leanne: Empathy. You got to have [00:34:20] empathy and you got to collaborate and, and that's where the, you know, [00:34:25] why I was like, yeah, shadowing, because then, you know, someone who's only ever been in sales, they don't, [00:34:30] they don't know what to ask for, for support, right?
[00:34:33] Leanne: Because sometimes you have to, in order to get [00:34:35] help, you have to know what help you need and you can't know what help you need if you don't know what else is [00:34:40] happening. And, and that's, you know, um, What hill I'll die on is [00:34:45] that silos suck, and that's such a safe hill to die on. It's so safe. [00:34:50] It's not, like, everyone can agree on that, but not everyone's willing to do the [00:34:55] work, to have the empathy, to, to break it down, or to reach out, or to set [00:35:00] aside, and, and sometimes, once again, back to repeating myself, it's the premise [00:35:05] is the problem.
[00:35:05] Leanne: They, they have limited time and energy and priorities, and they [00:35:10] have to execute on And, and finding that [00:35:15] time can be very, very difficult.
[00:35:18] Peter: So I guess the, the [00:35:20] blending, I'll throw this out as a suggestion. The blending needs to be that everybody owns everything from end to end. [00:35:25] The blending should be that marketers carry quotas.
[00:35:29] Peter: I was a [00:35:30] marketer, a quota carrying marketer for all of my tech career. [00:35:35] Not just the past couple of years where I'm at, all of my career. [00:35:40] And we look at it. It's not just about [00:35:45] clicks on a page, form fills, all that stuff. So many people love [00:35:50] their form fill event as a metric, but it's not, [00:35:55] it's not a legitimate metric.
[00:35:57] Peter: Now, if you have closed one and you can tie your campaign to it [00:36:00] and you can see all this activity, it's great. [00:36:05] It's what you want. That should be the metric. But your FFE is only an element [00:36:10] of the calculation against your actual metric. [00:36:15] Yeah. Why pull back on that? Is it because we think it's unfair? Is it because a bunch of marketers are going to stand up and [00:36:20] say, that's not my job or my favorite, which is what I've heard for 20 plus years of [00:36:25] doing this.
[00:36:26] Peter: Marketing can't be held accountable for sales. [00:36:30]
[00:36:30] Leanne: That's mine. I, you know, You actually use that term? No, but here's, [00:36:35] here's, here's where Here's a situation that I was in. I [00:36:40] was responsible for very, very top of funnel brand [00:36:45] awareness, brand, you know, customer persona developing. Extremely [00:36:50] top of funnel things.
[00:36:52] Leanne: And I had no [00:36:55] access, no power, no involvement in anything [00:37:00] beyond My extremely top of funnel place. I had no power for [00:37:05] email. I had no power for website I had no involvement and anything further down the line [00:37:10] and I was being held to Business generated [00:37:15] based off the very top of funnel things that I was doing even though I had [00:37:20] no access to anything else Whether it was [00:37:25] sales, whether it was the rest of marketing further down the line, any of it.
[00:37:29] Leanne: And so [00:37:30] I refused to be held accountable because I was like, look, I can get you traffic to [00:37:35] your website. I can get you, you know, people that would be willing to join your email [00:37:40] list. If you don't have a pop up or if you don't make it so that your website [00:37:45] can convert people and you don't give them the pathway forward, And [00:37:50] you fumble it, you can't hold me accountable.
[00:37:53] Leanne: And so I think that's, [00:37:55] you know, to both of our points. You know, that it has to be [00:38:00] integrated and you, you have to, if you're going to give someone the responsibility of carrying [00:38:05] quota, you've got to give them the power and the autonomy to [00:38:10] solve for what you're asking them to really solve for.
[00:38:14] Peter: At the very least at a [00:38:15] team level.
[00:38:17] Peter: And, um, but what it falls [00:38:20] back to, as I said early on, it's leadership. It doesn't [00:38:25] understand metrics. It is pursuing something in a very vague and obtuse fashion instead of [00:38:30] being, and, Many marketers [00:38:35] in general, many salespeople in general, we [00:38:40] share that trauma bond of being given metrics that don't make [00:38:45] sense, that are unattainable and not unattainable as in their, their [00:38:50] goal that we would miss because most of us get attainment of a bad metric, [00:38:55] which is like a cookie that ends up being a macaron [00:39:00] and most of us don't like those.
[00:39:01] Peter: So I'll throw that out there. Oh boy. I'm getting a dirty look. I [00:39:05] love this. No,
[00:39:06] Leanne: I'm just like, well, cause the look is, [00:39:10] is, um, I can't eat gluten. And 10 times out of [00:39:15] 10, the ones that you say no one likes are the only ones that are gluten free. So I'm [00:39:20] stuck with the, the glares is the easily accessible [00:39:25] gluten free.
[00:39:25] Leanne: Well
[00:39:25] Peter: then I'll say it's a dangled candy bar, but it always ends up being an almond joy. [00:39:30] Or no, it's a Mary Jane or a Biddle Honey.
[00:39:33] Leanne: I like Almond Joys. We're just, [00:39:35] we're just not
[00:39:36] Peter: compatible on snacks. You can have all mine. We'll go trick or treating together when we dump it out on the [00:39:40] floor. It'll make life so easy.
[00:39:41] Peter: I'll take all the Reese's. You can have everything else. Perfect. Um, [00:39:45] I'm still not endorsing any brands and I'm not disparaging any brands, but I mean seriously, [00:39:50] marketers get, get access to Gong. Listen to what your salespeople are saying and why they're [00:39:55] saying it. Get, get, understand what is, Being told to the customer, understand what the [00:40:00] customer is asking.
[00:40:01] Peter: If your leadership won't let you do that kind of thing, then [00:40:05] ask what your job really is. Marketers enable sales. Yes, there's a sales [00:40:10] enablement team, and that's a very targeted and specific aspect of everything [00:40:15] that's going on, but it's marketing's job to inform the customer [00:40:20] and generate interest from either an unaware or a slightly aware audience.
[00:40:24] Peter: [00:40:25] So that the salesperson can pick up and continue the conversation. And if you're saying, because [00:40:30] you're siloed, you're saying different things, then how's the [00:40:35] customer going to feel? And we're not even going to factor in the product team [00:40:40] who does whatever they want to do. It's shiny object time, pick and choose on [00:40:45] the roadmap, no prioritization.
[00:40:47] Peter: I'm just, I'm picking fights today. I don't know what's up with me, but [00:40:50] I love all these teams. It's just. We're, we're, we're in an [00:40:55] unfair competition with each other. It's a [00:41:00] lack of collaboration.
[00:41:01] Leanne: Right. And, and no one's saying that we all need to like sit in a circle and [00:41:05] sing kumbaya, but you know, there needs to be...
[00:41:08] Peter: It's the first part of RTO, [00:41:10] first day everybody's back, that you have to do that, just to make them extra miserable. [00:41:15]
[00:41:15] Leanne: Right. And then you have to awkwardly pick tables during lunchtime. You know, let's just go back to high school. [00:41:20] Um, but you know, I think that. [00:41:25] If, if we look forward into what's really going to work in the next 5 to 10 [00:41:30] years in the future of marketing, or, you know, what we think it should be, you know, I think [00:41:35] that it sounds like we both agree that there's some pretty broken bits and pieces to [00:41:40] it, and that the path forward is going to require work from [00:41:45] all levels, and You know, maybe not taking that out on the [00:41:50] very entry level people that are just doing their best and they are thrown into roles where they're just calling [00:41:55] 500 touches, 600, some ungodly amount of calls a week, or the person [00:42:00] that's brought in to be a coordinator and they're, they're just doing what they [00:42:05] can.
[00:42:05] Leanne: Um, but the, the top of it needs to understand [00:42:10] the fundamentals. And they need to understand and bring people together.
[00:42:14] Peter: [00:42:15] So let's circle back to the earlier topic. We're making acronyms to [00:42:20] feel better about what we're doing, to add some level of glamour on it. And [00:42:25] we're being told we have to do gated content, which is a horrible idea.
[00:42:29] Peter: Another hill I'll [00:42:30] die on. Um, and to justify [00:42:35] people not accepting gated content. We start expanding what [00:42:40] that term means, and then that's where we get to FFEs. And we qualify to the executive team. [00:42:45] We sell it up. We had 20, we had a 2000 [00:42:50] percent increase in FFEs. Oh, that's good. That's a great increase. [00:42:55] And then, you know, you give them some sort of tidbit that that aligns to gated content, [00:43:00] or that it aligns to some form of signup, when it's really just this amalgamated [00:43:05] bucket of any type of customer interaction.
[00:43:08] Peter: And it's [00:43:10] because the metrics were given. Suck. And we're really good marketers and we're really [00:43:15] good salespeople. And we can invent new ways, new interpolations of [00:43:20] delivering the message, selling the journey to the executives. [00:43:25] So are we self inflicting this harm by instead of saying this metric doesn't make [00:43:30] any sense, let me offer an alternative metric.
[00:43:32] Peter: And here's how it influences revenue. Instead of [00:43:35] saying that we're just saying, yes, sir, absolutely. No [00:43:40] problem. But when I present, I'm going to call them this other acronym [00:43:45] because you'll love it. And we'll have sold it into the Zeitgeist by that point and you can [00:43:50] repeat it to the VC firm and they'll eat it up too.[00:43:55]
[00:43:56] Peter: We have a PLG motion. We have a PLG motion. What does that exactly mean? We're [00:44:00] working on starting PLG. We actually have PLG.
[00:44:04] Leanne: [00:44:05] Is it LaCroix where it gives a hint of PLG? Who knows? [00:44:10] Could be any of it. Could be all of it.
[00:44:13] Peter: I wanna know what you meant by the [00:44:15] acronym of P L G when it was referencing LaCroix, but
[00:44:17] Leanne: Well, so ,
[00:44:19] Peter: [00:44:20] so, okay.
[00:44:20] Peter: No, that's the dangerous of, that's the danger of acronyms as well. When you look at, [00:44:25] when you look at acronyms, [00:44:30] we always don't wanna name things in a way where they can be mocked, but then we create [00:44:35] acronyms that open the door for mocking. You know, we all know what MLMs [00:44:40] are. We all know what they are.
[00:44:42] Peter: Mommy's losing money. [00:44:45] I mean, the joke lands because, because it's true. We know the [00:44:50] premise. We know the product. We know the intent. We know how this acronym was [00:44:55] made up to take the sting out of something that [00:45:00] is not right. It's not multi level marketing. What is, how does that even make [00:45:05] any sense?
[00:45:05] Leanne: Well, I mean, in a pyramid, there's lots of levels.
[00:45:08] Leanne: That's a scam. It's a [00:45:10] scam.
[00:45:10] Peter: And if you call it MLM, then people are like, oh wow, that's cool. That's a, that's a [00:45:15] new industry. I
[00:45:15] Leanne: love that. Yeah, it takes away the red flag. It lets you get scammed. It, [00:45:20] you know, it preys on the people that aren't aware.
[00:45:24] Peter: [00:45:25] Okay, so now executives are toddlers. They're making unreasonable asks at unreasonable times for [00:45:30] unreasonable quantities, and we're placating them with made up stuff.[00:45:35]
[00:45:35] Peter: But... We're giving them what they shouldn't be having under a different name.
[00:45:39] Leanne: Yeah, [00:45:40] yeah, we're feeding them candy at 9pm, for sure. Um... [00:45:45] But the premise is the problem, right? The structure of a corporation dictates that the [00:45:50] corporate thing needs to feed itself. It has to fuel the machine. And the only way to [00:45:55] fuel a corporate structure is to increase stakeholders.
[00:45:59] Leanne: Well, and [00:46:00] to increase, you know, the share value and to do these, these bigger things. [00:46:05] And, and it turns into the more, more, more, more, more. And, you know, [00:46:10] if you give a mouse a cookie, they're gonna want blah, blah, blah. Well, if you give a corporation, yeah, a glass of [00:46:15] milk, but then it turns into more than just milk, right?
[00:46:17] Leanne: Um, if you give a [00:46:20] corporation PLD, they're just gonna want more PLD. They're just gonna want more ABM. They're just gonna want [00:46:25] more, more, more, more, more. Because that's how it's... [00:46:30] Legally dictated in its existence [00:46:35] and because it's, it's a part of this bigger economy and, you know, not that [00:46:40] corporations are the only ones that have to do that, you know, um, in order for a [00:46:45] nonprofit to continue being a nonprofit, it has to bring in revenue and donations in order [00:46:50] to grow and scale and, and then help people that it's, or [00:46:55] places or things that it's supposed to be, supporting.
[00:46:58] Leanne: Um, so I think it's [00:47:00] just how, how do we function? This is a question I don't [00:47:05] really want to answer. It's rhetorical. How do we function within a system that dictates [00:47:10] these things that then perpetuates them or incentivizes making these [00:47:15] things or new versions of these things?
[00:47:18] Peter: I already answered [00:47:20] that. I already did.
[00:47:22] Peter: I know, fair enough. [00:47:25] You're giving me another soapbox bringing up nonprofits.
[00:47:28] Leanne: Okay, but I'm not going to let you get on [00:47:30] it.
[00:47:30] Peter: You cut me off? Are we at time? Look at that. We're
[00:47:32] Leanne: almost, I've got a bigger question that I want, [00:47:35] I want answered from you. I can
[00:47:36] Peter: run long if you, if you need, I think there's [00:47:40] some things you're going to want to cut, so we can at least make up the time, but sure, throw it at me.
[00:47:43] Leanne: One minute. All [00:47:45] right, uh, five minutes. What is a question someone should ask, [00:47:50] but they don't? Let's say someone's, clearly [00:47:55] people are missing the mark, right? We've let people make demands that are [00:48:00] incorrect demands. And maybe this is a segue to your soapbox, but what [00:48:05] is a question someone should ask? And maybe they ask all these other questions and they just miss [00:48:10] the point.
[00:48:10] Leanne: It just is clear over their head, they don't know what they don't know. Or what [00:48:15] is some, like, superpower or thing that you, Peter Wheeler, are [00:48:20] exceptionally skilled at and people really should just come to you and ask you about [00:48:25] it. Oh
[00:48:26] Peter: boy, flatulent. You definitely triggered my [00:48:30] ADHD there. I got various Numeroff books running through my head from [00:48:35] Moose Muffin to Pig Pancake as well as Lisa Loeb stuck in my head.
[00:48:39] Peter: And you could look up [00:48:40] Mouse Cookie Lisa Loeb at some point.[00:48:45]
[00:48:45] Peter: Part of the blessing of ADHD is being able to read a room and being able [00:48:50] to, I always tell my daughters, you'll say something to me and I go, you forget dad's superpowers. He can tell when somebody's [00:48:55] lying. And that that's beside [00:49:00] the point. When you're, when you ask this question, question, I have to ask you [00:49:05] now, who, who is asking the question and who are they asking the question of?
[00:49:08] Peter: Like [00:49:10] if, okay, let's just go back to our premise. Marketers or salespeople being told to do [00:49:15] something, being told their metric. And, and instead of asking, and instead [00:49:20] of creating an acronym to make their life a little more comfortable for one more quarter, [00:49:25] they're supposed to ask a question to the person giving them the metric.
[00:49:28] Peter: That's, that's what I'm hearing. [00:49:30] Don't, don't. You already know what, what their [00:49:35] questions are. You already, you already know what questions you have to answer. So yeah, you're answering [00:49:40] to a metric, but like you said, revenue comes into play, [00:49:45] profitability comes into play. So the, there's these [00:49:50] grander statements of like, what questions can I answer for them?
[00:49:54] Peter: To [00:49:55] better define these things. So there is a what, who are we doing it for? Then you get the simple, the [00:50:00] simple five, the how. So you come back with a statement. I don't agree with that [00:50:05] metric because I don't understand how it's going to achieve [00:50:10] what I'm going to present to you being, we understand that our [00:50:15] TAM, which nobody should reference their TAM, get your TAM, your SAM, your SOM.
[00:50:18] Peter: You should really only address the things [00:50:20] that you can affect. So. To get, to [00:50:25] capture what we're trying to capture, to hit these revenue numbers you're trying to hit, to do it in a [00:50:30] way that the ROI hits this specific number. My thought as a marketer [00:50:35] is blank. Okay. [00:50:40] There's strategy. That's going back to the original, original ask.
[00:50:43] Peter: That is strategy [00:50:45] right there. We. Have this to work from. We have this we need to accomplish. [00:50:50] We have these resources to do it. We expect this kind of return. That's how you build your strategy. Then you get [00:50:55] into the tactic tactics. That's the how we're going to do this type of email campaign. We're going to go to [00:51:00] these trade shows.
[00:51:01] Peter: We're going to bring on this headcount. We're going to, we're going to do [00:51:05] these things. We anticipate it costing blank. Now, granted, [00:51:10] all of this should be coming top down. This should actually be coming from the person setting the metrics. [00:51:15] It never does. And it never will. So do not hold your breath on that one.
[00:51:18] Peter: But as a marketer, if [00:51:20] somebody wants to challenge what's going on, as somebody that wants to innovate, as somebody that wants to control their own [00:51:25] destiny and actually say, I can be a quota carrying marketer, sure, because I have enough influence [00:51:30] on what's going on that I have no worries about. Oh, you've got a [00:51:35] revenue number that goes to sales?
[00:51:36] Peter: Throw it on me too, I don't care. You got a quota that goes to each salesperson? [00:51:40] Throw it on me too, I don't care. Because then the salesperson has empathy for me. Because [00:51:45] we are joint accountable in their success. Until that point, we're [00:51:50] not joint accountable. I can say, I've given you all the pipe you can take.
[00:51:54] Peter: And the [00:51:55] salesperson goes, that's rude. Followed by, no you didn't. [00:52:00] So, the question that we ask is, [00:52:05] how do I answer the question that corrects It's a metric.[00:52:10]
[00:52:13] Leanne: Slow clap. No,
[00:52:14] Peter: not a [00:52:15] slow clap. No, not a slow clap. 'cause none of us are gonna do it. It's scary as hell, especially a market [00:52:20] like this.
[00:52:21] Leanne: Okay. Every market is a market like this. Sometimes we just don't know better. [00:52:25] Um, the every market is volatile. It, it is, can and will always be volatile. [00:52:30] Just the, the types of volatility and our comfort for 'em.
[00:52:34] Leanne: [00:52:35] And you know, it's just recency bias. Um, you know, because [00:52:40] we saw the dot com crash, we saw the 14, like the 1949, or the [00:52:45] 1849, we saw You were there for that? 1929? No, whatever, there's been so many, [00:52:50] there was like the 30s depression, there was the, the, I was actually poorly referencing the [00:52:55] gold rush. Here in California, you know.
[00:52:57] Leanne: I hope you
[00:52:58] Peter: said 1949. I
[00:52:59] Leanne: [00:53:00] did at first. It was awesome. Um, it was very recent, you know, [00:53:05] uh, clearly I'm wrong. And, uh, you know, there's that, but the thing is, is that there's [00:53:10] so frequently volatilities and there will always be [00:53:15] market shifts. But what I [00:53:20] want us to feel encouraged to do. And, and maybe this is just [00:53:25] my own personal comfort zone, right, is, is I try to [00:53:30] educate myself the most.
[00:53:31] Leanne: What I did was I educated myself on how businesses [00:53:35] function, and then I can say, as a marketer, now I understand the business functions, and now I [00:53:40] can kind of bring my slices up high and try to weave it into [00:53:45] all this other stuff everyone else has to do, um, and not take [00:53:50] over their departments. Right? I'm not a software engineer.
[00:53:53] Leanne: I am not [00:53:55] an accountant. I am not a financial analyst. I am [00:54:00] not a lot of things. I'm a marketer. But when I understand [00:54:05] that, you know, we have 5 percent margins and I need, you know, [00:54:10] this much investment in order to get this much growth [00:54:15] or, you know, hope for ROI, then I can [00:54:20] start to try to take ownership of the things that need to be taken ownership of.
[00:54:23] Leanne: for that strategy to [00:54:25] work. Um, but you don't
[00:54:26] Peter: have that obligation. Like you can't say we have a 5 percent margin. [00:54:30] That's the executive team needs to go to packaging and pricing or go to product [00:54:35] or go to finance and say, why is it at 5%? Oh, we're doing a massive debt pay down right now. Oh, [00:54:40] okay. That makes sense.
[00:54:41] Leanne: Right. But I can, I can kind of like [00:54:45] backwards in my numbers to be more [00:54:50] digestible is what I'm trying to say. That it's not, the onus isn't on me to fix the margins. [00:54:55] But I can, you know, and in my current role, not [00:55:00] my, not my duties, so I want to be very clear that, that it's not everyone's [00:55:05] job and responsibility and obligation, but for marketing [00:55:10] leaders, let's say like the CMOs, CROs, like, you know, once we get to a certain [00:55:15] level, they, they can try to collaborate with CROs.[00:55:20]
[00:55:20] Leanne: The things that they need to do in order to backwards in numbers that are realistic and that matter. [00:55:25]
[00:55:25] Peter: Which is why our obligations as feet on the ground [00:55:30] are to understand what the goal is, understand why that metric might have been [00:55:35] chosen, and use our expertise to better apply it. [00:55:40] I don't know if you've ever met Marcus Kalki, but he and I have had some great conversations.
[00:55:44] Peter: He's [00:55:45] got these three C's that people hire on, um, [00:55:50] and the one that always stands out to me is competency. It's a curriculum. [00:55:55] Where'd you go to school? What did you graduate with? Because it's going to be out of date by the time you've been in the workforce for five [00:56:00] years. And you got culture, which is usually, do you think like me?
[00:56:04] Peter: And [00:56:05] it should be, can I stand being around you for most of my day? And competency is [00:56:10] the last one. Have you done this before? Is really the question of competency. [00:56:15] So we're always, we're hiring on the wrong things and we're expecting that out of people. [00:56:20] And, um, best of luck to everybody. That's [00:56:25] all I got to say.
[00:56:26] Peter: Don't hurt the system. That's not the point. It's not the point. Have empathy [00:56:30] for others. Both your peers and colleagues, as well as an [00:56:35] executive team that has a lot of pressures on them, are relying on you [00:56:40] to come up with the right strategies and the better metrics to [00:56:45] hit to accomplish the goals that they've had dictated to them.
[00:56:48] Peter: That's it. [00:56:50] Well said. I could have said that nice right from the beginning. I could have cut the show down to two [00:56:55] to make fun of everybody's job and rile up. Folks, and nobody's listening right now anyway, so [00:57:00] there we go. Hey, you know,
[00:57:04] Leanne: well, you [00:57:05] know, I would say that if someone has, uh, gotten it to this point in the podcast, [00:57:10] that what they should do is they should tell us, uh, via email or [00:57:15] a comment when we post this or whatever method you want, tell us if you were a mouse and you had a [00:57:20] cookie, what type of cookie you would choose.
[00:57:23] Leanne: And I'm just curious just to see, you know, the [00:57:25] social experiment of, of who actually emails us with a cookie. [00:57:30] Um, thank you for joining me today, Peter. Uh, you know, if anyone wants to [00:57:35] get in contact with you, what's the best way for them to do it? Um,
[00:57:38] Peter: Peter led growth on everything. [00:57:40] You can start with peterledgrowth.
[00:57:41] Peter: com and go from there. And I'll, I'll, I'll offer an [00:57:45] alternative challenge. Feel free to message me with [00:57:50] either how you've stood up in the past to make things better. [00:57:55] using empathy or where you have a problem right now, your [00:58:00] concept around solving it. And if you want to spitball on doing it, I'll be there for you.[00:58:05]
[00:58:06] Leanne: Awesome. I think that's a better challenge than my cookie
[00:58:09] Peter: one, but. [00:58:10] Oh, but it's, it's, it's always chocolate chip. You're going to get that by like default. And then there'll be folks [00:58:15] that hang out in the fringe with like, uh, Scotch oatmeal cookies or [00:58:20] thumbprint cookies. So.
[00:58:23] Leanne: There's the peanut butter chocolate chip cookies.
[00:58:24] Leanne: [00:58:25] I mean, there's,
[00:58:26] Peter: there's choices. It's just always so, so much risk there because [00:58:30] texture comes into play pretty quick.
[00:58:32] Leanne: Fair enough. Um, if [00:58:35] anyone wants to email me, uh, just go for info at markigy, M A R K I [00:58:40] G Y. com. Uh, or find either of us on LinkedIn. I would say we're both pretty, [00:58:45] pretty active on that platform and thank you for listening.
[00:58:49] Leanne: And as always, [00:58:50] just talk to us, talk to us about any of this. You know, that's, that's really [00:58:55] where we get our, our enjoyment out of. And, and I personally love [00:59:00] conversations like this. So thank you for taking the time.
[00:59:02] Peter: No problem. I want to share to dissent and wrap people up. [00:59:05] Awesome. Thanks buddy.