On this Episode of Markigy, I’m joined by Dave Wakeman, Principal of Wakeman Consulting Group, Podcast Host, and best known for “Profits not Promises” On this episode, Dave will share with us How to stop destroying your brand through discounts and start creating long-term sustainability in your business. How to Apply the 3 Levels of Strategy to do business and marketing better. And The powerful connection between your strategy and how you use marketing, to fulfill your strategy will results in better business outcomes, Let’s dive in!
Most businesses say they have a strategy, but 55% of businesses don’t actually have a real strategy.
In its essence, a strategy is just a way for you to focus your thinking. When you focus on simplifying your strategy, it becomes less daunting and more effective.
But here’s the thing, strategy is never done. Because your business is constantly changing and experiencing volatility, your marketing strategy should also be changing and evolving.
So, how do you ensure your marketing strategy stays relevant and effective?
Today’s guest believes the key is to have a process in place. Having a process will help you make profits, not promises. It’ll help you avoid becoming overwhelmed by planning so you can focus more on your strategy’s effectiveness. Ready to learn more?
In this episode of Markigy Podcast, your host Leanne Dow-Weimer welcomes Dave Wakeman, Principal of Wakeman Consulting Group, to talk about how to apply strategy to do business and marketing better. Dave highlights the powerful connection between your strategy and how you use marketing to fulfill your strategy.
In this episode, we discuss:
Remember, if you have a process in place, your strategy will work for you, not against you.
Meet the Host:
Leanne Dow-Weimer, Founder & Host of Markigy Podcast https://www.linkedin.com/in/leannedow
Meet the Guest:
Dave Wakeman, Principal of Wakeman Consulting Group
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dwakeman
Links to content here:
Wakeman Consulting Group: http://davewakeman.com
Email Dave: dave@davewakeman.com
Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Markigy: The Science of Marketing Strategy in your favorite podcast player.
This episode was produced and brought to you by Reignite Media.
David Wakeman- Strategy is Never Over
[00:00:00]
[00:00:00]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Good morning. Joining me is Dave Wakeman, a podcast host, consultant, and expert in profits, not promises. Dave, I'm so excited to have you here today. Could you tell me more about how you fit into this whole marketing and, and a little bit about your background?
[00:00:20]David Wakeman: Leanne, thank you so much for having me. I am completely jealous of all your graphics and all of your high production values.
[00:00:27] I feel like completely. [00:00:30] Like, I have gotta up my game now. So I'm gonna do my best to add some value here, . So a little about me. Uh, so like you said, I'm Dave. You can find me@davewakeman.com. Uh, my background is in, really, it's in, and it sounds really blow hearty, but I'm an American, so it works, uh, in making money.
[00:00:48] Uh, I grew up in the south, uh, in, in rural, rural Georgia. And early on I realized that like the only way you get out of the south is by, uh, being a salesperson, by finding a way to generate [00:01:00] revenue and money. So my entire career has been around the idea of, uh, creating and capturing opportunities. And so that's through how I describe it as, uh, strategy at three levels.
[00:01:11] And that's the top level of corporate strategy, the middle level of brand strategy, and the bottom level of marketing strategy. Uh, over the years I have been. I would say incredibly fortunate or lucky. My friend Tony though, tells me goes, he goes, there's something, uh, about all these things you've been involved in is that you have been involved in them.
[00:01:29] So I [00:01:30] have stopped saying I'm lucky, but I have been very fortunate to work with some of the biggest brands in the world. Uh, Google, Yahoo. Um, I worked for Paul Allen to help open the experienced music project in Seattle. Paul, um, was one of the co-founders of Microsoft with Bill Gates, so that was pretty cool.
[00:01:46] Um, I helped American Express, uh, yellowtail wines. I helped really like get Yellowtail in as a yellowtail in America. That was pretty cool. Um, I've helped reelect an American president. Um, [00:02:00] I've done all kinds of crazy stuff. So my role in marketing is that I understand the connection between your strategy and how you use marketing to fulfill your strategy and the execution through the four Ps and your tactics.
[00:02:14] So product, price, place, and promotion. Um, if you ask people anywhere in the world, Um, why they've heard of me. It'll probably be for the saying that in this article I wrote about seven or eight years ago, that's called Discounts are for Dummies. And it [00:02:30] was really just talking about how much I hate discounts.
[00:02:32] Uh, it has been translated into seven or eight languages now and it had really fueled my ability to speak on four continents. Uh, and then probably like 15 or 20 different.
[00:02:45]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Love it. And, and especially on the, the Discounts for Dummies. Huge believer in that. Um, I, I definitely recall when like Groupon was really big and trying to dissuade people from using it, especially small businesses.
[00:02:58] I'm like, this is not how you do [00:03:00] this. Um, so I mean, you've listed off so many impressive projects there and, and work that you've done, but you also mentioned about the three levels. Yeah. And that was something that came out during our last conversation, and th this idea that strategy is never over. So can we dive a little bit deeper into those?
[00:03:23] Yeah.
[00:03:23]David Wakeman: So I guess I'll start by saying, talking about why strategy is never over and why I say that and what I've found [00:03:30] over the years. Most organizations don't have a strategy, right. That that's, um, I did research and actually it came back, it was about 55% of businesses don't have a real strategy.
[00:03:42] Everybody says they do, but most of those things are like tactics and they're like just, uh, really spaghetti thrown against the wall to see what's done and what it will stick. Um, so most strategy becomes planning. And planning is like, it makes people fear strategy because they feel like, oh my gosh, we.[00:04:00]
[00:04:00] You know, commit to this long-term thing, right? And we're gonna plan and we're gonna like do research and we're gonna do all these things. And then at the end, we're gonna come up with this book. And I'm sure you've probably heard the analogy of the book that collects dust on the, the executives, uh, bookshelf afterwards.
[00:04:15] But that's really what happens in far too many places. Most of the time it's not a book now, it's just a file that never gets opened on somebody's computer again. Um, but most planning is procrastination. And so people attack strategy, like it's going to be like there's some kind of outcome, [00:04:30] but really strategy is just a, a way for you to focus your thinking, right?
[00:04:35] I've spent my entire, um, professional career at, when I realized what strategy was focusing on simplifying it right? And. The ultimate level strategy at three ways. And why it's never done is because it's just a series of choices. And I, I use a framework in my work, uh, workshops called, uh, cfa. So choice, focus, and Action.
[00:04:55] And what we wanna do is we wanna know where we're going, right? We wanna have an ambition for our organization, [00:05:00] and we want to make a decision about what that's gonna look like. So what will success look like? If we are successful in achieving our goals, then we need to focus on that. And focus comes in two forms.
[00:05:10] It comes in the form of understanding what market we're participating in, like who is our buyer? And then it fo then it becomes part of the, um, choice that people are gonna make. Why are they gonna pick us over somebody else's value proposition? And then we take action, right? And we need two things to take action.
[00:05:25] We need to know what actions we're gonna take and what resources we need to be successful. [00:05:30] Um, that never ends because the, the market's dynamic, right? There is this term that maybe you're familiar with, maybe your audience is familiar with called vuca, you know, so volatile, uncertain, oh shoot. Now I'm on the spot.
[00:05:42] Uh, complex and ambiguous. There, there it's, there you go. And people even I get lucky first thing in the morning. This is great. Uh, and so VUCA has become this kind of throwaway thing in strategy where everybody's like going, oh, you know, well this is a food environment. I don't need strategy to. [00:06:00] Because I can't plan for anything.
[00:06:01] And then actually, um, it's always been uncertain. Business has always been volatile. It's always been complex, and it's always been kind of ambiguous. That's no excuse for not doing strategy strategy's never done because you're kind of constantly seeing the environment change. When you take actions, they're gonna be reactions from your alternatives and the competition in the market, right?
[00:06:22] Your customers are gonna react a certain way. It's a never changing thing. Strategy is a set of choices. Know what success looks like, [00:06:30] know who we're gonna target, what our position is in the market, what actions are we gonna take, and what resources do we need to take to be successful? It's never done because you kind of have to always be revisiting those.
[00:06:43]Leanne Dow-Weimer: I love it. Like, yeah, I mean, I think we can all relate to strategy and, you know, especially in this digital area of like being a living, breathing, evolving, iterating way of, of business life, I guess you [00:07:00] could call it. But, but also life because the things that we see translating in our personal lives and our business life really aren't that different.
[00:07:09] You know, you mentioned that you realized at some point in your life that you wanted to focus on driving revenues. That's a strategy. That's, that that was your strategy to move around the us Yeah. Um, and so, When you, you, you shared this really amazing analogy [00:07:30] of, um, the, kind of the, the levels like, um, with like an airplane.
[00:07:37] Oh, the airplane, the airplane analogy. Space jet analogy. There's so many ways we could describe it. The
[00:07:41]David Wakeman: flight analogy, I think it train, I don't know. Transportation. I haven't come up with a name for
[00:07:45]Leanne Dow-Weimer: it. We gotta brand it. . That's
[00:07:47]David Wakeman: exactly right. I should know that.
[00:07:49]Leanne Dow-Weimer: It's Dave strategy. Dave Jet, 1000. .
[00:07:53]David Wakeman: Yeah. So I guess, so then your question was like, let me describe that for everybody because I, it's, it's clumsy, [00:08:00] right?
[00:08:00] Like I told you it was clumsy, but I think it sticks with people and it, it's, so, it's at the top level, right? Imagine you are a satellite. That's your corporate strategy because you're going really fast, right? Orbiting the earth. Um, you, you don't have a chance to really focus on any one particular aspect of your organization or your business or the market at any one time because you're juggling all kinds of different things.
[00:08:23] At the second level, like right, maybe the little Concord, the Supersonic Airlines might be your brand because you're still juggling quite a bit of things, but you're able [00:08:30] to get a little closer. You're able to slow down just a bit. You're able to understand, uh, the market just a little bit better. And then maybe you have a, um, your marketing strategy would be consistent with maybe skydiving, right?
[00:08:42] So you have a big territory. You're not exactly sure where you're gonna land, but you're going to want to, um, you, you can get, make out, um, everything a little bit more clearly. You have a little bit more control cause you have those little, uh, you know, those little pulleys that guide you and everything.
[00:08:57] And then my favorite part of the analogy is like, [00:09:00] your tactics are like driving around LA at rush hour with no g p s, you know, and no mat and you don't know where you are. And you're just kind of like wandering around, hoping you're gonna get in the right direction, but being willing to change your mind and adjust depending on the situation, on the ground.
[00:09:17]Leanne Dow-Weimer: I love it. And I, and I especially, you know, as you were describing it, again, thinking about how the skydiving connects one thing from the other. You start at the, the top and then you find your way [00:09:30] down. You're always gonna end up down. You have no choice there. Yeah. It's gonna go that direction. Yeah. But you're connecting them.
[00:09:35] And, um, and so what are some, some ways that this was, has been applicable, like in real life scenarios that, that you've seen play out.
[00:09:49]David Wakeman: Okay. So how has this framework worked in real life? Uh, I guess I, I, I, I'll start by using myself and that and that, and then it's not necessarily a Dodge that just [00:10:00] gives me a chance to formulate the story so it makes sense for you.
[00:10:02] Um, but I'll start with me because I think it's really instructive because if you gotta do a job, you are your own best customer in a lot of cases, even though often you are your worst customer. Um, but just with me, right? So we'll go back to my origin story in the, in the deep south, uh, and understanding the importance and power of revenue generation, right?
[00:10:21] That would be atra a big, big level. It still is my, you know, my ambition. If you will, for people. It's like, I wanna help people understand how to [00:10:30] create and capture opportunities, you know? So at the biggest level, everything I do is focused on that at a brand level. I, you know, we talked about prophe, not promises, right?
[00:10:38] And it's the understanding that, hey, look, uh, there's a lot of people who talk about a lot of things when it comes to marketing and sales and pricing and branding. Most of it's bullshit, if I can say that on your, on your show. Yep. He's, it's nonsense. Yeah. Most of it's just like psycho babble nonsense, right?
[00:10:54] Uh, my brand is focused on something specific and it goes into those strategic choices, which [00:11:00] is my position, right? So if I'm about prophe, not promises, that has really cleared the lane for me because in relative terms, , if you're talking about me versus a lot of people, right? Who talks about profits? Not very many people, right?
[00:11:13] Most people are talking about like, oh, you need a bigger brand cause it's gonna be good for your business. Oh, you're marketing because you gotta like market to get attention for your business. You drive awareness, you gotta get clicks and engagement. No, everything you're doing with me is about profits, not promises.
[00:11:26] That's rel you know, relative differentiation against [00:11:30] most of the market as marketer. I understand that. Like my biggest benefit, the way I get people to pay attention to me the most is, uh, speaking. So I do as many of these podcasts as I can. Um, and I, I love to do 'em because I, like, I learned so much.
[00:11:44] I've already got a page of notes from like, everything that we've been talking about. Uh, I. A lot. So you get like the Business of Value newsletter or all the stuff that's on my website, dave wakeman.com. Uh, you know, you know, I do my own podcast. I do a lot of networking, right? [00:12:00] Um, but not like in the sleazy, like, here's my business card, bro.
[00:12:02] Give me a call. Let's go ahead . But like networking where it's like going, Hey, you know, uh, Leanne, what, you know, how's everything going? Is there anything I can do to help you? Right? It's like, you, you know, or what, what are you, what, what's, what are you, is there anything you're struggling with or jammed up on?
[00:12:15] You know, like offering real value to people. Um, you know, and then I hope to get referrals, right? And, and I've been fortunate that I do get referrals and because I actively ask for them. And then I, um, have been very good about hopefully giving people [00:12:30] value for the money that they give me. . Um, so, so then tactically that plays out through, you know, pricing product place and.
[00:12:39]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Yeah. And, and being on both sides of the fence, having been the person that was getting referrals for my own personal work, and then also being in a corporate position or as an employee for someone else, is that those types of strategies aren't very disconnected. Right. There's never a business where you want to, well, okay, I rewind that.
[00:12:58] There's plenty of [00:13:00] businesses where they just don't care if they do a good job and they do not care if they get referrals. But we're not talking about doing business badly. We're talking about how to do business better. Um, right. But there's, so to that extent, if you wanna do business better, there's never one where, you know, refining your processes, thinking through things, whether verbally or orally distributing content, asking for more business, whether it's in a direct sales or a consultative or [00:13:30] different methods, and then doing a good job.
[00:13:32] So you get referrals and you provide value to people. , those are somewhat universal concepts in my mind. Um, what what's your take on that?
[00:13:44]David Wakeman: Okay, so it was a lot fast . That was a lot, that was okay. Um, you see, you, you, you try to trip me up, but you can't . Um, so referrals and doing business better. Okay. So I think it's interesting because we are really at [00:14:00] a, uh, time in history, right?
[00:14:03] Which is really, um, like I was saying before with vuca, right? And this idea of everything's being volatile. Um, the, the volatility in the natural environment just seems to be, um, higher than any time I remember it, right? And I think that that's really been the case for what are we in two, at least the last 14 or 15 years, if not longer.
[00:14:27] Um, you know, yeah, I'm, I'm sure it was [00:14:30] bubbling up even before we had the financial crisis in 2008, but that seems to be a real, um, clear. Divide like a before and after moment. And it seems after, uh, bro culture and hustle culture and all of these, like really kind of, um, repugnant ways of doing business, um, came to be even more dominant than maybe they were in the past.
[00:14:52] Because I, I'm not naive enough to believe that there wasn't that kind of stuff going on. Right. Right. Like we were talking about finance and some of the [00:15:00] things that were going on in finance and, um, you know, banking and real estate before we started recording. Um, I'm not naive and I don't think that it's something new.
[00:15:09] I think it's just become overwhelming for people. Right. You know, it's like the spam that you'll get on LinkedIn or like the way people like just spam you about everything. That's business done wrong. And I think it's a, it's a, um, the fact that it's so prevalent and so common is really a sign of desperation, right?
[00:15:29] Yeah. And so people [00:15:30] are desperate to, um, you know, find a way to like thrive and to, um, achieve success, whatever success means to them. And so what that has created is an environment where people do business wrong. Like you, you know?
[00:15:45]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Yeah. And I mean, some, some spam is benign. You know, I've, I've definitely seen plenty of small business owners that just don't understand that what they're doing is spamming.
[00:15:54] Mm-hmm. . Um, and so there is that, that level of sophistication. But on a corporate level, spam is, [00:16:00] is not benign. It's, oh, yeah. ,
[00:16:03]David Wakeman: well, some of these, the, the, a lot of the sales, what goes down is sales is. Completely spam and then it's sold to these poor kids. Because most of the time it's, it's kids at this point, um, as like the way that they can make it, they have to crush it.
[00:16:17] Right. And they have to be phone crushers. They have to be like basically always be closing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It is all crazy. And so I don't, didn't wanna dodge your last question. So what, how do I get to referrals? Right. And I think it [00:16:30] begins with your mindset, right? And, and you know, it's easy for me to say that, right?
[00:16:35] Because I mean, I've been, I've had my own business for um, gosh, 8, 17, 18 years now. And then I had one before this, you know, and so much of it was my built on my personal relationships with people. And so much of it is, you know, was founded in those, the foundation of like, I'm gonna give you really great value.
[00:16:54] I'm gonna be a really great partner to you, and I am going to. You know, be [00:17:00] somebody you trust, you know? And, and so it's easy for me to say that because, you know, these businesses predate any of these challenges that people are really struggling with now, you know, but it begins with that mindset, right?
[00:17:11] You have to start at some point and say like, look, no matter what happens, I'm not going to just like be a turn and burn operation. I'm not going to just like, try to extract from people as fast as I can. I'm going to be a good partner. I am going to build a relationship with people, and I am going to hopefully re uh, earn [00:17:30] the opportunity to receive re repeat business and referrals.
[00:17:34] Um, it is not easy. I don't wanna tell anybody that it is it, you know, because, you know, it's not, it's competitive. The, the world is competitive, right? And there's tons of people who can maybe do something similar to what we do, you know? So it, it is all built on relationships and it is built on a mindset and, um, You know, the more people can find themselves the space to be able to operate in a manner that makes them feel good about the way they do business, [00:18:00] I think the better off we are.
[00:18:01] But I know it's, I know it's really hard for a lot of people because they're just hoping to get that next project and that can make you do things you won't necessarily be proud of. Yeah.
[00:18:11]Leanne Dow-Weimer: There's also, you know, kind of sidestepping a little bit, um, but there was something you said about, you know, turn and burn.
[00:18:19] Or turn and burn, yeah. Mm-hmm. . And in my mind, this brings up this idea of long-term sustainability and, you know, . That's something that really stuck [00:18:30] out to me like 10 years ago and, and through grad school, back in the distant past. But this, this, your business needs to exist for more than just today. And you can get that short-term win, but what does that do to your long-term strategy?
[00:18:46] And I feel like this is echoing. Your discounts are for dummies. Mm-hmm. , because that short-term win can totally, um, infiltrate, I don't know what the word I'm looking for is. Maybe I need more [00:19:00] coffee, but it can devalue and I see your coffee cup. It's only as big as my head, you know, that's intentional. Um, but the.
[00:19:11] The damage that that can do to long-term profits. And, and if we're really looking for profits and we're really looking for revenue, then, and we're, we're really trying to, if your startup make the most of your cash runway, or if you're a solopreneur, your savings, or maybe you don't have a savings, but you're really looking to be able to, to have [00:19:30] that recurrent revenue that a r r, then you can't really be too heavy on that, like, you know, take 'em and leave 'em type of approach,
[00:19:43]David Wakeman: right?
[00:19:43] Yes. Or, okay, so No. No. Okay. So, so you're a, you asked me a very complex question and you wanna do yes or no answer. I know, right? Like's, that's all. That's awesome. That's like something I like, do , here's your life story. Yes or no? .
[00:19:58]Leanne Dow-Weimer: So discounts, right? [00:20:00] Ignore the, the vuca, but I just want this black and.
[00:20:03]David Wakeman: Yeah, the whole thing discounts, uh, but no discounts is really like, it.
[00:20:06] It is, um, less Bennett from, um, and he, him and Peter Field did create this thing called the long and short of it. Um, but recently he was at, uh, one of the Marketing Effectiveness Awards, uh, shows in London, I believe it was. And he said, discounts are the crack cocaine. For mark of marketers. And I would agree.
[00:20:24] Uh, I just wish I'm a little upset that he said it and I didn't get to beat him to it. Uh, so, uh, [00:20:30] so let me credit less completely. Um, discounts destroy your brand though. That's, that's the, the big, the big key there is, uh, I do a lot of work in sports and ticketing. There is a company that, they're whole sales pitch seems to be that.
[00:20:43] Like what? Look, if we just get people in the door cheap, they're gonna see what the value is and they'll keep coming back. And I have, I said it, I say it again and again and again. I have never ever seen that work. Right. And I have made, um, I was trying to calculate how many individual pricing [00:21:00] decisions I had made throughout the course of my career and is somewhere north of.
[00:21:03] At this point, um, because I was like heavily involved in individually pricing tickets and drinks and professional services and hospitality things, I have probably made a million pricing decisions and I've never seen this really work for the long term. And it's because, like you said, your brand and Carry has a life.
[00:21:24] Right. And I think most marketers, uh, should have a definition of what brand means to them. [00:21:30] And for me, it may be helpful for people to understand what my definition is, which is to me, your brand is the accumulation of touches that you have with your market over time. And it's good or bad because you, there can be good and bad ones.
[00:21:42] You need to know though that the good stuff adds up very, very slowly and the bad stuff will tear your brand down in a. And the fastest way to tear your brand down and make yourself into a commodity is through discounts. So if you discount, you do price-based promotions, it destroys your brand equity as [00:22:00] fast as anything that you can, any other thing you can do, you could be like, um, you can see all these examples of people doing like real making really bad, like PR blunders, or making really bad advertising mistakes.
[00:22:11] Uh, those are still le those actually end up having a positive impact, but a discount will, it is the most destructive thing you can do. So then if you're thinking about profits, there's some really interesting numbers around how destructive, uh, discounts are to your, to your profitability. So [00:22:30] if you're able to raise your profits 1%, just 1%, right?
[00:22:34] So if you ch, you know, let's say you're charging $10, um, and you instead can get through price to 11, uh, 1%. So $10 and 10 cents, right? You will likely see about a 10% increase in your profitability. Right, because most people, and why is that? Well, as most people, um, don't understand the cost of goods and services, they haven't necessarily, uh, charged based on value.
[00:22:55] You know, there's like a bunch of factors that go in here. On the flip side, if you discount [00:23:00] 1%, I have seen research that says you'd lose somewhere between 10% and 40% from just 1% of discounting. And the cha the thing about it is, is that most of the time the discounts eat up sales, that would've happened anyway.
[00:23:12] Mm-hmm. . So you're giving discounts to people who are already gonna buy because you're paying, you know, so, so it undermines your, your profitability. It undermines your brand, it undermines your customer loyalty because now people are waiting to see what kind of discount you'll give 'em next, right? So there's all these things.
[00:23:28] So if [00:23:30] you're trying to build a brand for the long term, you have to hold onto that brand equity, right? So you have to pick, like we talked about at the start, a position in the market. What are you gonna be known for? What does success look like for you and your brand? You know, how do you wanna show up?
[00:23:43] Are you a premium brand? Are you a, um, Discount. Right? Or are you somewhere in the middle? Right. And you have to stick to that. Right? And, and because if you start discounting every, all the hard work you're doing is gonna get washed away very, very quickly, unless that's your brand. At which point, good luck to you [00:24:00] because the race to the bottom is only won by one business, and that business is usually a loser as well.
[00:24:05] Right. The
[00:24:06]Leanne Dow-Weimer: race to the bottom was going through my head and, and as you were saying this, and what, what else stuck out to me was that, um, the, the relation between how human psychology doesn't really change, um, as much depending on where those humans are interacting. Right? [00:24:30] So a relationship is, a relationship is a relationship is what I'm trying to say.
[00:24:33] And so if me and person B are, you know, friends or we have some sort of, you know, Involvement in each other's personal lives if they do something that is negative. Mm-hmm. , depending on how deep our relationship, how long it's been, how, how frequent we see each other, that is going to be more powerful than a lot of the positives.
[00:24:57] Right. Because can you can think of at least one person [00:25:00] in your life that has done something, I hope that people have these boundaries, , um, that has done something where you're just like, you know what? I'm just not messing with that person anymore. I am not texting him back. I am, I need a cool off period.
[00:25:13] Or, you know, something like that. Or, you know, where you, and, and I've heard this quote from, you know, just interpersonal psychology, which is also, I, I admit that it is, I'm making something black and white where there's the nuances. Uh, cuz socially people react [00:25:30] differently. Yeah. Mm-hmm. just a little bit because mob theory and, and you know, stuff like that.
[00:25:35] But, , it takes a significant amount, more positive interactions to undo one bad. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . And that doesn't change for brands. And I think that more brands need to understand that, that that one bad use, my little air quotes for people who are only listening, um, is, is very powerful. And whether it is [00:26:00] a discount or it's like, um, eroding your credibility by having a messy brand show up, right?
[00:26:08] Because people don't know what to expect anymore. They're like, well, do I get version A or version B today? What do I get? And. it, it sparks something inside them. So you're gonna say something I want, I wanna capture that thought.
[00:26:21]David Wakeman: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what, what you were saying though is like, when am I get version A or version B?
[00:26:25] But see, that's actually where people run into trouble as well, because [00:26:30] they expect that, like as a marketer, you expect and you think that people care about your brand and they don't, they don't really give shit. That's true. That's true. They, they could care less. Yeah. Unless it's, you know, and the only instance that I really see this change is there's like some Apple fan boys, right?
[00:26:47] Like, um, you know, that's very small instance, the following people. Yeah, exactly. The, that happens with some, some brands, right? But sports teams, Like, those are the only places where people care outside of like when they're going to [00:27:00] make the purchase that I've seen. It's like you have an a favorite entertainer, you have a favorite team, you have a favorite, like, uh, kind of like entertainment option.
[00:27:08] Those are about the only times I've ever seen it work most of the time. No cares. Right? So then like if you don't, if you have a sloppy brand, like are you an A or B? Really what that does is that's just lessening the impact of anything you're doing. Right? So it's not, it's not even, uh, um, powerful enough to, to like be, see as a negative.
[00:27:27] It just is like you lose the opportunity, [00:27:30] right? Yeah. And maybe what ends up happening is like people tune you out, but like the ex people just don't care and they care less if you don't know the story.
[00:27:38]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Right. And, and I wanna like put my little asterisk on this because as I'm hearing it said back to me, I wanna be very clear, I'm not talking about a and b testing
[00:27:46] Um, I'm not talking about multivariate testing, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about like overarching big ones. So, so just to clarify that, like, I'm not an idiot. I do think that A and b testing is a very important thing. Um, well, can
[00:27:59]David Wakeman: I, can I, [00:28:00] yeah, can I jump on that? Because the A and B testing I think is great.
[00:28:02] It tracks. Yeah, exactly. But part of the thing too is like, I don't want people to confuse what you said about a and b testing, cuz it's very important that like on your short term sales activations, you are am b testing thing
[00:28:15]Leanne Dow-Weimer: down at the bottom. It's not in the jet. Oh yes, it's not in the jet. No,
[00:28:18]David Wakeman: no, no.
[00:28:19] That's down where like GPS is busted. Right? Um, we're talking about, like, when we're talking about this, we're talking about the big picture level, right? Like you can get one, two words into somebody's head, right? [00:28:30] You know, so for me it's profits, profits, profits, profits, right? You know, everything I come and do, I'm talking about how do you make money, right?
[00:28:37] I mean, you know, like, so you, you, when you're A and b testing, you shouldn't be A and B testing your brand stuff because it's gonna be nearly impossible to judge whether or not it's working or not. Especially in the short term. The only time you're gonna really start to see the impact of your brand building efforts.
[00:28:55] over time, you'll see your business grow, right? Be, and it'll take, it usually takes like [00:29:00] two or three years before you really start to see the impact. Or you'll see it if you don't invest in it, because then that stuff that you can a and b test, that last click attribution becomes less and less effective.
[00:29:11] And you see that happen, you know, and as early as six months in some cases. But you know, around that time, about nine to 12 months, you'll start to see those things be less effective because you haven't done any branding to support the call to action that's in your a and you know, your, in your activation.
[00:29:27] Yeah, definitely.
[00:29:28]Leanne Dow-Weimer: And so
[00:29:28]David Wakeman: it's very important for people to
[00:29:29]Leanne Dow-Weimer:[00:29:30] understand that. Right. And because I just, I always wanna be like abundantly clear, like, you know, that when, when I say certain things, I mean, you know. Mm-hmm. , I, I wanna clarify because I could, I easily see how that's misinterpreted. So it would be like, Uh, you know, VP of Demand jet is like, wow, Anne's an idiot.
[00:29:48] No, but I'm, I, I mean, I have a lot to learn. I have a lot to learn. Probably the
[00:29:52]David Wakeman: VP of Demand generation is the idiot because they're, they're probably going, all that matters is what we're investing in the social right, and like how we're doing, how we're [00:30:00] generating those like instant sales and like not paying attention to the brand at all.
[00:30:04] So at that point, you're the negligent one, not Leanne . Leanne knows exactly what she's talking about.
[00:30:10]Leanne Dow-Weimer: I, I, but that's the problem. People listening only I visibly cringed at his, what he said, I've visibly cringed at only investing in social and not brand, like very clearly that you have to in order to create true demand gen.
[00:30:23] Right? Like, okay. Yeah.
[00:30:25]David Wakeman: You, you have to, uh, well, oh yeah. I'm not saying you don. Invest in [00:30:30] your social media. I'm saying that it is one tool. Exactly. And I'm saying that one of the big challenges that the marketers deal with is that there're like, are people out there who tell you that the only thing that matters is like social media or like, you know, things that you can measure the ROI on.
[00:30:47] And they're wrong. They're not just wrong because I'm saying they're wrong. They're wrong because the data doesn't back them up. Right? Yeah. And you have to invest in both, because if you don't have a brand, then you're a commodity. And if you're a [00:31:00] commodity, then the only thing that's gonna really matter is the price or the luck of the draw in where you place your ad.
[00:31:05] If you have a bill, a brand, it gives you pricing power, it gives you, uh, customer loyalty. It acts as a shorthand for people to make a decision. Right. All of these positive things, if you are a commodity, it becomes price and luck. That's what it's
[00:31:20]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Right. But, and there's, there's like known, established commodity products and services out there, and.
[00:31:28] I want to be so [00:31:30] optimistic and be like, but you can take these commodities and level them up and make them Oh yeah. Better than a commodity. Absolutely. You can take them outta that commodification role in the world and you can really start to. To, to support something bigger and better and greater. Right.
[00:31:49] Like I
[00:31:49]David Wakeman: come from this school though, that says that you don't, nothing has to be a commodity. Exactly. Right. That there's always a way that you can add value, that you can increase the brand equity [00:32:00] of a product or service, you know, that you can reposition yourself, that you can niche down, that you can do something that allows you to not be a commodity.
[00:32:08] Being a commodity is the worst business model you can possibly have.
[00:32:13]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Right. And, and I think that if we look at any of these big, I, my, my mind goes to like foods because mm-hmm. , um, you know, I'm, the first thing I thought was peanuts because I heard of this thing in the South where they put peanuts in their sodas.
[00:32:27] Yeah, absolutely true. And don't like , and I've never tried [00:32:30] that, but, If you look at peanuts and you look at Mr. Peanut, who is a very well-known American brand character, and that the fact that when we say peanuts, we see like the little guy with his little peanut pain in his top hat, you, it, it, it takes it.
[00:32:47] Even though peanuts are like a true commodity, like they are, they are. Um, You couldn't tell what his peanuts taste like versus somebody else's at the store. The generic peanut, if you will. Um, the [00:33:00] Costco
[00:33:00]David Wakeman: cashews are the most high quality cashews. Yes. But no, this is true. They buy 80% of the most high quality.
[00:33:06] So it's not true. It's not actually like that. True. There are differences, right? Like the farmers and growers. But if you didn't build Mr. Peanut, then you wouldn't know that, right? Yeah, you would've No idea. And I don't even know if Mr. Peanut is the best peanut. I don't, but I just know what that's the
[00:33:21]Leanne Dow-Weimer: what I'm gonna get.
[00:33:22] Same with like Coca-Cola or Pepsi or, you know, there's so many things. And in another place where we saw that they [00:33:30] rise above the commodification is Chipotle. Right. I remember doing a report about Chipotle in school when it was like, only in California, only in the, like this little like bubble of states in the west.
[00:33:45] And now, like it's a known thing. Are you gonna get gukk? Are you gukk level? Like ? Yeah. Yeah. And, and so you know that that's a, that's an important conversation to have is that you don't have to, people feel [00:34:00] stuck. They're like, well, you know, my product is a commodity or my product, everybody could get everywhere.
[00:34:05] And it's like, well, but that, that doesn't mean you have to do sucky marketing.
[00:34:10]David Wakeman: Well, you, I, I think if you're point of view is that, . I'm just destined to be a commodity then. Yeah. I think you're gonna, you're gonna up commodity. Yeah. You're gonna be to be, be a commodity. And, and a good story goes back to like, when I started out in nightclubs mm-hmm.
[00:34:25] And, um, so this is a story I, I, I tell pretty regularly, but I'm gonna tell a second part to this one. [00:34:30] This one is, I, I love this story. . Yeah. This is a good one, right? But the, I'm not actually gonna explain even further, because we had, we were in the nightclub and it was called Trio. And so our busy season was spring break because we were in Fort Lauderdale near the beach.
[00:34:44] And so everybody's trying to get, um, kids to come to their clubs and their bars for spring break, uh, because that's like, when the business is, is popping, right? And so you'd all off have any number of, um, really like crazy, uh, ladies [00:35:00] night programs or, you know, uh, everybody drinks free programs. So we, we went all in.
[00:35:06] Everybody drinks free every night. So, and how we differentiated ourselves though was like, well, at Trio, which is three clubs in one. Mm-hmm. , you know, and, and so like the free drinks were going on everywhere because everybody could copy that, right? But you couldn't copy it at a place that had three nightclubs in one.
[00:35:23] So dance, disco, and rock and, and you know, so even though it was all the same, well, [00:35:30] rot Gut, well, vodka, , all the kids were drinking. We had differentiated ourselves through those brand codes that we had, you know, and that brand equity that we created by having three clubs in one, um, it was still, we were still buying the vodka from the same people at the same cost.
[00:35:45] I mean, you know, relatively speaking. Um, you know, so that's one instance. But the most powerful way I learned about it right, was that, um, we had been tasked with increasing our check average a quarter. And this is the, this is [00:36:00] the story Leanne's, uh, referencing here, because this one's, uh, taught me almost everything.
[00:36:04] Like, uh, such a valuable lesson that has stuck with me for 20 years since, uh, and so, , I decided like, what happens if I just ask people what kind of gin they prefer with their genin and tonic? And so what happened was, I've discovered that people, no one sees themselves as a well gen drinker, a well gen and tonic drinker.
[00:36:26] So when you're at the club, everybody has a preference. [00:36:30] And what you realized was like when some people see themselves as a tangoe and tonic drinker, and some people see themselves as a bombe and tonic drinker, and now there's all these fancy things. I mean, I drink, uh, sipsmith when I have gin at home. Um, you know, and that was wasn't even a, a thing back in the days.
[00:36:47] Uh, and what that showed me though was that like the cost of, to me between a, well gin and a premium G was probably not even a nickel a drink. Mm-hmm. . But the [00:37:00] story and the branding and the relative differentiation in people's mind allowed me to charge maybe a dollar, a dollar 50 more. Right. So instead of a $4 drink, I was able to charge a 20 per, what was that, 25% premium?
[00:37:15] Yeah. So to go to $5 and, what was it? 5 cents, you know, 5 cents. So I increased my profitability like a, a tremendous amount because the costs were basically the same. Still had the electricity of having the nightclub on, still had the same water, NIC water, [00:37:30] the same crappy plastic cup. Um, you know, still had to pay the bartenders and the bar backs and the managers and everybody the same thing.
[00:37:38] The only difference was that instead of drinking well drinks, they were drinking tan. And if you get somebody to drink two tans or three tan tonics over three gen tonics, then maybe, you know, you made three extra dollars a night. And if you do that over the 10,000 people you have in the club each night, you make $30,000 a night and [00:38:00] $30,000 over the course of six weeks.
[00:38:04] is hundred $80,000. And so in the first year that we were doing this, or the fir, even the first six months that we were doing it, we ended up making us an extra three or $400,000. And so, and that's just from one question, which shows the power of brand because all you had to do was as soon as you presented people with like, going, do you want a gin and tonic?
[00:38:23] Or, what gin do you prefer? That people have a a choice. And most people be like, well, there's no, not really a lot of difference. Once [00:38:30] you mix it with a, uh, , that's not the point. The point of the brand is the, that it tells a story and it's a shortcut for people to make a decision. And because people are making this decision, they are often willing to pay more because of the perception that, for them and the perception that they want the story they wanna tell the world.
[00:38:46] Yeah, and I, I think we got way off
[00:38:48]Leanne Dow-Weimer: track on that one. No, but I love the story. I love this story because it just shows so many key aspects of a strategy. It shows how branding influences. It shows how consumer [00:39:00] insights and research matter. It shows that you know how to maximize sharing somebody's audience, right?
[00:39:08] Because at that point, you're sharing the audience of those brands. You're sharing the audience of the Titan. You're sharing, you know, we even, we got halo effect
[00:39:16]David Wakeman: from them. Absolutely.
[00:39:17]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Yeah. And, and the, and it didn't cost you more. Well, I mean, it cost you more to buy their product, but it didn't cost you in relat terms, not really.
[00:39:25] Yeah. And, uh, a reasonable amount more, we'll call it. Yeah. Not [00:39:30] negligible, but not, not a lot, not, mm-hmm. enough to stop you. For sure. Um, and then, you know, thinking about how this translates now, the specific case study, if you will, of, um, you know, beverages and in nightclubs is like, right now really popular, you know, by the time this goes live, it won't be popular anymore, I hope.
[00:39:50] But there's this TikTok trend of like, there's this audio about, uh, spa auto with Prosecco and, um, [00:40:00] You know, all these, all these bars and restaurants are suddenly having to have all these ingredients and, and people are coming in and they're, they're, they're trying it and they hate it, , but they, they, they keep trying it like, like it's not stopping the, the consumer's drive because something went viral on a social media and created that demand.
[00:40:20] And then, you know, if someone was gonna ask them, like, okay, so what kind of this do you want with it? They're not gonna say, oh, I just want the, the, the shitty. [00:40:30] No, they just asked for a drink by name that they've never heard of. And they think they're fancy. They're gonna ask for like, no one's. Another way to say this is, no one's the Ursula in their own story.
[00:40:40] No one's like, man, I really do suck today. Like, I mean, you there, there are, and I apologize for you. I, I hope that, you know, your day gets better. But in the long term, we're not conditioned, we're not wired to think of ourselves as the the bad guy. We're not wired. We, we have a bias towards our [00:41:00] own positive, um, self.
[00:41:02] Yeah. Um, impression. And, and I keep taking things back to, to psychology cuz the thing is, is that when we're talking about strategies, not only do you need to underst do I think that marketers need to understand psychology? I'm not a psychologist by any means. Um, . I think that there's a couple things that marketers really need to hone in on is it's that, that research, that asking and engaging and having a dialogue with their, your [00:41:30] customers to find out those nuanced things.
[00:41:32] Mm-hmm. . So you have to learn how to ask better questions. Mm-hmm. , and you have to learn how people work and when you don't have, and those two things I think are, as I'm talking to more people and, and really flushing things out, um, you know, I think that those are some of the biggest impactors on whether or not your strategy is successful.
[00:41:52] Um,
[00:41:52]David Wakeman: well let me, let me Lemme take it a little step further because you, you, you highlight a very important idea, right. Which is like, you need to understand the psychology and that [00:42:00] can be used very. You used it very well. Like you talked about it in a, with, in combination with research and understanding people.
[00:42:08] Right. Um, a lot of times people talk about, uh, psychology and research and all these things in a way that's like, makes this seem manipulative. Manipulative.
[00:42:17]Leanne Dow-Weimer: No, that's not the goal. That's not the goal. No.
[00:42:19]David Wakeman: But the point I wanted to add was like, so when you talk about this research, because most of the time if you're not careful, we hear this all too often and it's wrong again, which is about the research and the [00:42:30] segmentation of your market.
[00:42:31] It needs to be based on like demographics or things that are easy to do. No, the psychology and the research is important because you need to understand the behaviors and your segmentation should be done by behaviors. Right? Because you're gonna find out that like there's a lot more in common between, um, across demographics as why people are making decisions than you think there is, right?
[00:42:52] Because there's no. , you know, like all 25 to 35 year olds do not act the same. No. Right. Just like all [00:43:00] 45 to 50, you know, 55 or 60 year olds do not act the same. There's a whole lot of more, uh, there's a whole lot more complexity to the decision making process. And if you're going to be an effective marketer, then you need to understand that.
[00:43:13] And like Leanne just said, it's like understandable the psychology that drives people to make decisions. Right? Like, what's that story they tell themselves? Do the research, talk to people, find out what you know, what's valuable. Right? You know, I'm sure that like, you know, a 45 year old mother of a [00:43:30] three-year-old and a 25 year old mother of a three-year-old probably ha or like acting a lot similar than you would say, just a 25 year old woman versus a 45 year old woman.
[00:43:38] And you would. . And, and most of the time they get separated like that as opposed to like, what the big thing that's driving their behavior is that they have like a one-year-old. Right. And that's, you know, and those things are important to understand because if not you, you make bad decisions. Yeah.
[00:43:53]Leanne Dow-Weimer: And, um, you know, in the parenting world, something that, that you learn [00:44:00] when you have a child is just how segmented the mommy market is.
[00:44:06] And that there's people with very, very tightly held preferences about child rearing, . And, um, for any moms out there, you're not always wrong despite what you're hearing. , you're, you're doing things right. You're, you're doing great. Um, but, uh, that's a whole tangent. We'll, we'll kind of gloss over. Um, [00:44:30] So, you know, one of the things that I always like to ask, and we've talked about a lot, and I, I love our conversation, Dave, like, they're always like, so exciting for me.
[00:44:39] Um, is thank you. Is there, who is, who would be wrong? Like, like, and we've covered kind of who would this be wrong for? Like who should do this
[00:44:49]David Wakeman: wrong? Who, who start a list.
[00:44:54]Leanne Dow-Weimer: I kinda list . Oh man, that was just, I, I opened it up [00:45:00] too far. Um, but you know, we,
[00:45:03]David Wakeman: and we've talked about, I'm chatting it now, right now. I've got a whole list for you, . Tell me when you're ready.
[00:45:09]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Um, okay, so, so these strategies that we've talked about today in this episode, um, who. , who don't they apply to?
[00:45:19] We've talked about how they don't apply to people who want to race to the bottom. They don't apply to, to people that are cool in the commodification zone. Mm-hmm. , um, we've talked to people, we've talked about how it's [00:45:30] for people that aren't necessarily interested in getting, generating profits, whoever they are, , whoever they, they're wrong.
[00:45:38] What is wrong for this is wrong for people that want to have their business open in two weeks. Um, yeah, exactly. But, um, you know, is there any like niches or, um, niches? I always say it one of the two ways, but, um, who can you think of like a, a set of people, a segment that like this just doesn't [00:46:00] apply to, or like a stage in a company's growth or, you know, a scenario of where this works and where this doesn't work.
[00:46:09]David Wakeman: Hmm. So if you said types of organizations that this focus on just like profitability and return on investment wouldn't work for, then I would say like, you'd have to, you, you wanna be careful about applying this to government and nonprofits. Ooh. So, um, you know, because like, I think one of the challenges that we, we face as a society right now [00:46:30] is that there's this nonsense idea that, that government has to operate like a business
[00:46:35] So that would be one place where it would not work. But the same is for nonprofits because a lot of nonprofits I see have just become money churning machines, and they actually should be trying to fulfill their mission and put themselves out of business, but that doesn't happen. So I would say those two areas are where these things should not apply.
[00:46:53] Um, but that would just be me. And then I would tell you no, that would probably highlight my, uh, tree hugging hippie. [00:47:00] Uh, but,
[00:47:00]Leanne Dow-Weimer: but at the same time, you know, I think that's really, really insightful because. What I've heard, I don't have direct experience, um, is that in government, if you don't use it, you lose it with your budget and Well, that may be true.
[00:47:12] Yeah. And, and so like, I I, and I've never heard this directly, no one's said this to me in a one-on-one conversation. Um, so this is all conjecture, but you know, that, that makes sense. And there's definitely those nonprofits that, you know, um, are better known for [00:47:30] fundraising and mm-hmm. less knowns, a lot less known for the actual benefits to society they've produced.
[00:47:38] Mm-hmm. Um, and, and that's the, the nonprofits can be a wonderful way to support some much needed of society's thing. Yeah. I am pro nonprofit, um, oh, a hundred percent pro nonprofit. A hundred percent. So I don't want this misconstrued. Right. But there's also, you know, just like in any sector, there's those, those.
[00:47:59] Bad [00:48:00] actors. Mm-hmm. that, uh, focus more on, on other things. And, and that's, that's kind of that, that fine line is that nonprofits should be trying to get themselves out of is, but they also have to be sustainable. They also have to fundraise, they also have to do marketing. Yeah. And so it gets a little dicey there.
[00:48:18] Yeah.
[00:48:19]David Wakeman: Well, I think part of that, the problem is, is the way that the fundraising is just set up. Right. Right. And the fundraising, the fundraising is set up in a way that, um, [00:48:30] the mission, it's, and it's not necessarily always the nonprofit's fault. It, it's just sort of the nature of the way that like fundraising consultants operate or like the fundraising business itself operates great.
[00:48:44] It creates all of it. Yeah. Never ending cycle of you. You never get a chance to really focus on the work as much as it needed. Right. Because the work itself. Is infinitely rewarding. It's infinitely important in most cases. And, you [00:49:00] know, it deserves funding, right? The, the problem becomes is when you're like spending, it's co like 80%, 90% of your time, and your money and your effort is just going to make sure that you have the, the money to keep going.
[00:49:11] To me, that seems like a problem, right? Because then you can never actually make a dent in what you're, what you're trying to achieve, you know? And yeah. And there are some very successful organizations that do a great job of raising money while at the same time having a tremendous positive impact in the world.
[00:49:27] Uh, uh, one of my favorite examples, uh, and I've been [00:49:30] fortunate enough to work with them in the past, is the Eeb research partnership. Based in New York. It's called Epi isis Paloma. It's a rare skin disease. Um, and it's like kids. So if we have, I think it's seven layers of skin, uh, you know. Yeah. Uh, these kids have one or two and it feels like they're on fire the whole time.
[00:49:47] Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a brutal disease. Um, the guy who runs the thing's, a guy called Michael Hunt, Michael is an amazing nonprofit leader, uh, is started by, um, a group of people, uh, Alex and Jamie [00:50:00] Silver. , uh, one other family in Eddie and Joe Vetter. Um, and you know, and they, they, they, they have a venture philanthropy model where it's like they invest in these technologies and these procedures that will help, and then they get a return.
[00:50:13] So that, like, it's not like they're always, um, stuck on the, the, the fundraising treadmill. Mm-hmm. , they get paid back through the, the impact of their work. And so it allows them to help solve the issue. And they do, and it's a, a unique model and it, and it works well. So they don't have to, um, always be [00:50:30] fundraising.
[00:50:30] I mean, it helps if you have Eddie Vetter as your founding board member. Right. Different
[00:50:34]Leanne Dow-Weimer: story. Right. The, the halo effect and the branding of Eddie Vetter. Definitely. Right.
[00:50:39]David Wakeman: Exactly. Yeah. So lo love nonprofits. I just, I hate to see them be stuck to the profit motive because that's not what they're there
[00:50:45]Leanne Dow-Weimer: for.
[00:50:46] Right, right. Absolutely. Um,
[00:50:50]David Wakeman: Who else is wrong? I got my list.
[00:50:52]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Oh, man. Uh, I think that we might have to, to include the list at a, in a part two , [00:51:00] um, , but,
[00:51:02]David Wakeman: you know, and, and I'm always happy to come back, Leanne. You know, I appreciate what you're doing here. So like, I'm always happy to come back.
[00:51:08]Leanne Dow-Weimer: I, I just love this conversation so much.
[00:51:10] I'm like, oh, like I, I know that we have to wrap it up eventually, but there's so many golden, golden nuggets in this and gems like, like this is a really, really great conversation. Um, I, I'm afraid to open Pandora's box here. Where do you think marketing is going? [00:51:30] Looking forward, right? Because, because we can look back at what's, you know, happening in this current environment with all this volatility and ambiguousness.
[00:51:37] Um, and, and I've got my thoughts, but, uh, what are your thoughts today on where you think as an industry marketing is going in, uh, that macro level view? . All
[00:51:49]David Wakeman: right, let me, let me, let me answer it with, with three points. So the challenge that marketing is trying to overcome is, uh, too much focus on tactics.
[00:51:59] Mm-hmm. [00:52:00] attack, uh, as Mark Ritson, uh, we call it the testification of marketing. And that's created a lot of problems because, you know, you, you see this overwhelming focus on impressions and engagement and, you know, I think it drives a lot of the discounting and things like that. So that's the challenge that marketing is working to overcome.
[00:52:19] Uh, two things that I think are, if I were looking at the future, and I would say I'm really enthusiastic, uh, as a marketer about this renewed [00:52:30] emphasis on brand. Right, because I've seen more articles about brand building, like Goldman Sachs talking about investing in their brand. Um, a company called Vivid Seats in the secondary ticket market has spent a tremendous amount of money on brand building focus on their brand.
[00:52:43] Uh, Pepsi, in their quarterly reports last week, uh, when we're recording this, was talking about how their investments in their brand over two or three years has started to pay off, right. And how they're investing in, you know, all of their brands, not just the overall brand of Pepsi, you know, and how, how they're seeing growth from that.
[00:52:59] Uh, [00:53:00] you know, so I, I'm hopeful that we'll see that because the investment in brand leads to things like, you know, again, customer loyalty, it's a shortcut, helps people make decisions more easily. It gives you pricing power, you know, the, all those things are great for marketers and for me who, somebody who's talks about profitability.
[00:53:16] I applaud those things cause that's great, except for the fact that I hope people don't get to it too quickly so that they continue to come to me. Right. Um, The second part though, is in the short term, I do think that some of these bad habits that people have picked up will stick around for a little [00:53:30] bit longer.
[00:53:30] Yeah. I don't think we're in danger of seeing, uh, people like make mad rushes out to like get as many impressions as possible in the short term. Uh, I do think we're probably still gonna see, uh, far too heavy of a reliance on discounts. Um, and I think that, um, you know, we're gonna see people indiscriminately just like creating products as a way to drive, uh, market share or growth when we know that like just creating profits, cannibalizes successful profits.
[00:53:59] And a [00:54:00] lot of times, you know, it's easy to create something that is, you know, and think it's doing a good job or that you're creating something valuable when you're not really doing it. So I think that we'll probably see that in the short term, but I'm really hopeful about that long-term re uh, re attention and reinvestment in brand building.
[00:54:16]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's, there's so many fewer barriers to entry. that you have to differentiate yourself and you have to do it clearly and early and often. [00:54:30] Um, you know, and I think it's, it's really important to see the, you can, you can hear me thinking right now, um, but there's, there's a lot going on in the world with, with the, the quickness and the speed of these changes in the environment and the volatility, and I think that to some extent that that's just going to become more background noise for, for [00:55:00] holding to a true brand.
[00:55:03] Strategy. And, and that's at top level, you know, because if there's, if there's a fire drill every day, who are you when there's not a fire drill? And at some point you have to say, you know what, if our stuff is locked down and we are who we are and we are, you know, respectful and tasteful, and we build relationships, this doesn't need to change because today, um, this, this thing changed, you know, in the environment or this thing happened, you, you should, [00:55:30] you know, be respectful of tragedies.
[00:55:32] Mm-hmm. , there's far too many tragedies and you know, please be respectful of them. I'm not saying post, you know, your commercial during a new segment in which a tragedy is on air, please refrain. Um, no one wants to go to that restaurant. You know, that badly right? Is not relevant. Um, but you, you do start to be like, this is who we are.
[00:55:54] This is who we're gonna be, and this is our brand. Um, and it evolves [00:56:00] and it iterates, but it starts, but
[00:56:02]David Wakeman: that core needs to stay the same, the core. Right. You know, cause part of, part of the, the real trouble that people encounter with their brands is that there's no through line, right? Mm-hmm. , there's no consistency.
[00:56:14] Right? Um, you know, you should I tell people you should do your research every year, right? And you should go back and segment your market, make sure you're targeting the right people, make sure your position still works, but the through line of your strategy, right? Who you are, what success looks like. You know, those, that [00:56:30] ambition, those brand codes, all of those things, they, there needs to be some consistency there because they don't just happen in the short term.
[00:56:37] Right? And within that, right this through line with the brand codes and your ambition, there's great room to. , right? Like, so if there is a a and then, and you wanna do some newsjacking, right? Or something, or if you need to respond to, um, a news event, or you need to tone something down because of a tragedy or you know, some, whatever the case might be, there's still room to do that without [00:57:00] losing the core.
[00:57:01] You have to have the core, right? Like, again, I'm a good example, right? Profits, not promises that I can go, I can go play all over the place with that, but the, the core is like going, what does this do to help you make more money? Right? What does this do to help you be more profitable? You know, it, that's the key is like, oh, no matter what, Tactic you use, the strategy is there, right?
[00:57:24] Right. The strategy is we're going to be, you know, we're gonna be the best, uh, you know, like Al Alabama, [00:57:30] I went to the University of Alabama, well, the best football team in the country, right. They lost Tennessee on Saturday, which sucks. But the thing is, is like, we're still focused on being the best team in the nation.
[00:57:38] Right. You never lose sight of that. Right. I'm always focused on profits no matter what I'm, where I'm playing. It's gonna be something about getting people more profitability. Right. Um, you know, and that that should apply to every business. Yeah, definitely. Or organization. Even if you go back to the government and the nonprofits that we're, we're talking about where this stuff doesn't work, that part does, because branding is just as important [00:58:00] for the, um, uh, for your country.
[00:58:02] Right. Or like your institutions as it is for any other business.
[00:58:07]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Yes. Yes. Agree. Um, and, and, and as you were talking, I, I think that there's also this. understanding that that difference between the levels, right? Because if somebody is promising profits on that tactical gps, like, we're turning right, and this is gonna get you a thousand dollars level, that's wrong.
[00:58:29] Yeah. [00:58:30] But if someone's there's plenty of tricks. You can, you can. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, that's where you start to get, that's a red flag. That's a red flag. If, if you have an, like, an, uh, SEO person saying, I'm gonna get you $5,000 more per month, like, click here. Mm. Maybe don't, um, maybe don't. Yeah, maybe don't.
[00:58:49] Um, but, but on this higher level of, you know, way up on, in the jet. focusing on profitability from that level and being [00:59:00] able to funnel it down or fine tune it, or whatever phrase you wanna say to, to make it happen is completely different and, and realistic. Um, it, it takes work. It's not easy. It doesn't happen at the flip of a switch.
[00:59:14] Yeah. But unless things are just really, you know, there's always a low hanging fruit, um, in which case Awesome. Yeah. To face . But it, it does take time, it does take consistency and it does take, um, informed [00:59:30] strategic choices.
[00:59:31]David Wakeman: Yeah. E exactly. And, and you have to be willing to say that I'm going to do some things and I'm not gonna do others.
[00:59:40] Exactly. Because it's, it's not so much about like, um, what you will do, it's more about what you're not going to do. Right? Mm-hmm. , because we all ha are so overwhelmed with the amount of things that we can do. It's what we're not going to let our attention go to. That's most important, right? Because you have to be able to say, I [01:00:00] get distract.
[01:00:00] You know, get distracted by whatever new tool or new idea or new whatever is going on. You gotta go like, look, this is my customer. This is why they're gonna pick me. These are the actions that are gonna get me there. I can't get distracted by this other stuff. And that's where people get jammed up because it's noisy out there.
[01:00:20] There's a lot of people, there's always people telling you like, this new thing is this new bottle, it's gonna fix everything. This new platform is gonna solve [01:00:30] all of your problems. And the truth is no. What's gonna probably solve your problems is having an understanding of what direction I'm going in, what success it's gonna look like.
[01:00:38] Let me understand who my customer is. You know, who, who am I targeting? What's my position in the market? How am I gonna express that to people? , what actions am I gonna take and how, you know, what resources do I need to be successful? And you keep focusing on that because that may bring that new tool into the conversation, but it's not a requirement.
[01:00:57] Right. Right. Unless it is for you. [01:01:00] And that's your decision to make. Not like some snazzy new social media marketing firm to tell you, oh, you gotta do this, or you're gonna be, because everybody's doing it. Right.
[01:01:10]Leanne Dow-Weimer: And as always, as always, there's an asterisk there, right? There's an asterisk there. If, if you are, uh, a company in, you know, a certain environment and you have not adapted to contemporary marketing [01:01:30] and you're still doing marketing a a certain way, you might, you might need to, to update what platforms you're joining because like billions of people are using it.
[01:01:40] Um, but the way that you do it is where, There, there's always room. There's always that, that white and black and gray. Cause I can think of some, some older organizations just off the top of my head, that, that probably should engage in some new social platforms that maybe they were neglecting [01:02:00] because they, they, they might want a younger, younger audience space.
[01:02:04] Cuz you gotta, but see that would
[01:02:06]David Wakeman: probably, though, that would go back to the strategy thing. Yeah. We would have to know what their research looks like Yeah. And who they're targeting and what their position is because
[01:02:14]Leanne Dow-Weimer: maybe they don't and what their current problems are. Yeah. What is your current problem?
[01:02:17] Yeah.
[01:02:17]David Wakeman: Because sometimes, like, you know, I do, you know, I, I agree. You know, my thing is, you know, you always wanna be in the, in the middle of this thing, but without knowing what, like, is this a conscious decision? It would [01:02:30] be hard for me to say they absolutely should. Right. But that's the, that's the big, but that's a big point because you want us to make sure you stay away from the absolute.
[01:02:37] Yes. You know, which is unsatisfying for people because everybody wants to, uh, lemme give you the one answer that's
[01:02:42]Leanne Dow-Weimer: going to work here. Here's my playbook. Just spend a thousand dollars and join my mastermind course. I
[01:02:46]David Wakeman: promise. Exactly. Which I don't have a mastermind course , unfortunately, to sell you on. Um, but yeah, you, you, you wanna make sure that you have a process in place.
[01:02:56] And, and that's really the, the lesson I always try to get across the people [01:03:00] is have a process so that you can make better decisions. Right. So you have a shorthand. Yeah. So that you don't get overwhelmed by planning. You don't get overwhelmed by whatever's new and exciting in the moment. Right. You have the un the ability to say, this is great, but it's not for me.
[01:03:17] Right. , this is awesome, and I should be doing this because this is going to help me reach these targets. And, and that's really where you, you know, the big, if I can only get one point across, it'll be like, look, make sure you have a [01:03:30] process in place for yourself, because that process is not so much because the process is perfect, the process is there because it allows you to, um, reset yourself effectively, right?
[01:03:40] So you can tell where you are in, you know, in your strategy thinking, in your strategic thinking, or you can, you know, how often you need to revisit your process so that you make sure that you're not taking actions that have become stale and stagnant just because you've gotten comfortable doing them, and you've become proficient at doing the wrong things, because that happens.
[01:03:59][01:04:00] And, you know, and, and it, that's really where my, you know, my encouragement for people comes in. I agree. Come to my mastermind class. It's only 1499. . All right,
[01:04:10]Leanne Dow-Weimer: Dave. Wakeman processes, not playbooks. Profits not promises. I can't thank you enough for what an amazing discussion this has been. Um, we'll definitely have to do a part two soon and yeah, absolutely.
[01:04:25] And thank you again, um, for anyone who wants to get in touch with you, he's mentioned it a [01:04:30] couple times, don't miss it. Uh, Dave, once again, what is the best way for someone to reach out to.
[01:04:36]David Wakeman: All right, let me give you a couple things then, so you can email me. It is my name dave dave wakeman.com. You can also visit my website.
[01:04:43] That's dave wakeman.com. And then there's a popup there where you can get my newsletter, uh, business value. Uh, there's a couple things I do, and if you just fill in that popup block, uh, popup box, uh, you'll get all kinds of cool stuff for me because I put out like all kinds of like crazy stuff all the time.
[01:04:58] I, I read and [01:05:00] write, which is how I figure out how to like not be a complete and total, uh, nty when I come on podcast. So . But thank you so much for having me. This was a lot
[01:05:07]Leanne Dow-Weimer: of fun. Thank you so much. Um, and thanks for listening to everyone. This has been Market G uh, strategic Marketing Podcast biweekly. We share our ideas, our conversations, and we can be found wherever podcasts are.
[01:05:21] Thank you again. Bye.