Casey is a growth veteran, with over a decade of experience in helping software companies scale fast. Whether it's garnering millions of views on Quora and Linkedin, or pioneering new growth levers (like booking his team on hundreds of podcasts), Casey is always looking for creative and value-led ways to grab attention and break from the mold. In his current role leading growth at ActiveCampaign, he is building organic growth engines to propel the team to $1,000,000,000 in ARR. On the consulting side, Casey works with some of the world's biggest firms including places like McKinsey, Blackrock, Colemans, GLG, Guidepoint, etc., where he provides institutional guidance to PE/VC teams around topics such as: SMB marketing vendor selection, SaaS pricing, Saas marketing/CRM tool differentiation, market analysis, inbound marketing, and marketing automation.
At the backbone of any customer relationship is direct communication. The most underutilized or misaligned strategy for fueling a dialogue to further the relationship is email marketing.
in this ever-evolving landscape, it's easy to be swayed by the newest platforms and trends. But amid the unpredictable tides of shifting algorithms and corporate buyouts, there's one medium that has consistently stood the test of time: email.
Yet, despite its longevity and the freedom it affords, many marketers struggle to reap the full benefits of email.
Casey Hill, Sr. Growth Manager at ActiveCampaign returns to the show to share the many secrets to successful email marketing.
In this episode of Markigy: The Science of Marketing Strategy, Casey and Leanne discuss:
The actionable takeaways mentioned in this episode are:
To learn more subscribe to Markigy with Leanne Dow-Weimer.
This episode was produced and brought to you by Reignite Media.
Casey Hill- S3 Email Marketing
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[00:00:40] Leanne: Good morning, this is Leanne with Markergy. I'm joined today with Casey Hill, Senior [00:00:45] Growth Manager. Casey, go ahead and introduce yourself.
[00:00:47] Casey: Hey, My name is Casey. [00:00:50] I have been in the software slash martech slash kind of email [00:00:55] world for about the last decade. So I love to geek out and kind of get into these [00:01:00] topics at depth.
[00:01:01] And I'm based in Southern California, down in San Diego area. So those are [00:01:05] little tidbits on me.
[00:01:06] Leanne: Great. Thank you so much. So the reason why I wanted to bring [00:01:10] you on today and the things I want to talk about are about email and really[00:01:15] when the reason why it came up was that there's this constant discussion of owned [00:01:20] assets and how we need to take people to places where they can access us and we can [00:01:25] access them if a server goes down or if an algorithm changes or [00:01:30] any of these scenarios that are almost guaranteed to happen at some point.
[00:01:33] Casey: Yeah. It's a great, it's a [00:01:35] great and very timely discussion. I think right now in 2023, we've seen a ton of [00:01:40] algorithm changes across a lot of the major social networks that exist out there that are [00:01:45] often major sources of where people drive business. And we see a little bit of that [00:01:50] vulnerability, even people being like taken off of platforms or shut down, for different behaviors.
[00:01:54] [00:01:55] One, they shouldn't be. I had a friend who just had a really viral post that got like over a [00:02:00] million views. And so he got a flood of connection requests. And they actually like shut his account down for seven [00:02:05] days on LinkedIn. Did absolutely nothing wrong and he got it fully restored, but you're kind of [00:02:10] beholden and a little bit vulnerable to stuff like that.
[00:02:12] Whenever you're on these outside channels, so [00:02:15] something like email, which is an own channel, something that you can own that list, have that sense of [00:02:20] control over that asset. I think is really powerful, and I want to also be [00:02:25] totally transparent. It's not as if email doesn't come with any risk factors as well, right?
[00:02:29] [00:02:30] Inboxes can change stuff. We saw the Apple auto opens that inflated a lot of open numbers [00:02:35] that happened recently. So there still is some of that, but you own the actual data, and that's a [00:02:40] huge difference, right? You actually have the email addresses, and having control of that [00:02:45] data... I think is a hugely valuable asset in, in 2023, and [00:02:50] beyond, I mean, we could go on a big digression on, on AI and how owning the [00:02:55] assets and being able to see those customer insights allow you to segment and personalize and [00:03:00] do all these things much more robustly, versus that all being kind of black box and external, [00:03:05] but I think it's just setting the stage companies that are right Starting out or [00:03:10] honestly, even if you're a sophisticated organization, having access to those own channels [00:03:15] is really important.
[00:03:16] And email, I think is just at such an interesting time. I'm [00:03:20] excited to chat with you about email because it seems like, you know, we flash forward back [00:03:25] 10 years, right? And everyone's like getting into email marketing and it's this exciting wild [00:03:30] West and people start building their first email lists. And then you see like laws coming in, like cam [00:03:35] spam, try to tamp down on all this stuff.
[00:03:37] And it's this. There's kind of all this energy and [00:03:40] then as it got more and more saturated they're honestly starting to become almost like a spammy [00:03:45] Association like you get so many emails all the time flood in your [00:03:50] inbox I know for me I delete 90 percent of what I receive without ever even opening it [00:03:55] because they're always like these pitch requests and you know link exchange and [00:04:00] insert promo after promo after promo and The average is, [00:04:05] you know, like people kind of throw out like, oh, the industry average open rate is, you know, 18 percent for this [00:04:10] industry and 21 percent for this industry and 0.
[00:04:13] 7 percent click through rate. [00:04:15] And people have kind of just started to almost like accept that this is just the [00:04:20] reality of email. If I send emails, I'm going to have... You know a sub 20 percent open rate and I'm [00:04:25] gonna have a sub 1 percent click through rate and that's too bad because it doesn't have to be like that I [00:04:30] think there's a lot of ways that you can make really meaningful connections with your audiences I run a [00:04:35] newsletter personally and having sent out gosh knows, you know, 100 000 plus [00:04:40] emails total You know, 72 percent open rate, 18 percent click through rate, like [00:04:45] very strong engagement numbers through trying to do things, in my eyes, kind of the right way, [00:04:50] in a value added way that's substantive, that's specific, that sets expectations.[00:04:55]
[00:04:55] So, I'm excited to kind of dig into this a little bit and hopefully give people some very [00:05:00] specific pointers that they can take away to apply to these. So that they're not just checking the [00:05:05] box. Checking the box, I did my podcast, I did my blog, I did my newsletter, right? In [00:05:10] today's world, so often it's just like, Oh, I need to go do that thing because someone told me to do this thing.[00:05:15]
[00:05:15] It's like, how do you do it in a way that gets you your end result that you want? Which is engaged folks, [00:05:20] customers, loyalty. Yeah,
[00:05:22] Leanne: yeah, I mean, I, that triggered so many memories [00:05:25] of different things I've done, and, and different places that I'm at now. One of the things [00:05:30] that, that I think depends on multiple things, so there's a couple things I'm [00:05:35] going to call out and we'll kind of chase those butterflies.
[00:05:37] So, the first one is, is open [00:05:40] rates, right? So. What I have found, in my personal experience, [00:05:45] was that the companies that actually had smaller lists had higher [00:05:50] open rates. And that might be counterintuitive to a more is more is more kind of [00:05:55] mentality. But the fact of the matter is, is that when you're a list, it is...[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Curated and it's, explicit and it's very [00:06:05] well fitting is it's not always going to be massive. It's not a newspaper [00:06:10] distribution. It is a set of people that have opted in that have chosen to [00:06:15] be on this.
[00:06:15] Casey: just to kind of underscore something there, I think part of that is because of specificity, [00:06:20] right?
[00:06:20] I think there's actually ways for people to grow ever larger lists and have them still be [00:06:25] really engaged. But what they do is when they have a million people as part of a list, they don't just [00:06:30] send a bulk email to all a million people. That is what loses the [00:06:35] specificity that a small list has. But if you're, let's say you're a big clothing company, but you know that someone [00:06:40] bought.
[00:06:40] You know, men's hiking shoes, or, you know, someone bought a female blouse. Like you go [00:06:45] through all these categories, you send very tailored information to those folks. That's what allows [00:06:50] you to keep that engagement level high because it's very, very relevant. So [00:06:55] I think one of the lessons here is really, you know, you can absolutely continue to [00:07:00] grow your list, but make sure you're gathering the information to make that experience [00:07:05] valuable for the person on the other end.
[00:07:07] That's segmentation. That's asking, you know, [00:07:10] let's say that you don't have any advanced analytics. A very simple way here is just ask like one [00:07:15] question on intake. I know this is a controversial thing that I fight with marketers all day [00:07:20] long around, which is I always suggest asking at least one.
[00:07:24] [00:07:25] Personalization question on an intake form and people fighting to say, no, you got to just have email on a [00:07:30] newsletter. Keep it super simple. There's back and forth wars, but I've looked at a lot of data behind this. [00:07:35] And yes, you might get a few less opt ins, but what you ultimately get is more customers, [00:07:40] more people coming in with intent.
[00:07:41] And if you use that information to serve up a better experience, [00:07:45] it almost always downstream produces a better impact. And I think the vast majority of folks [00:07:50] would give up. A couple low intent opt ins that get turned off by you asking [00:07:55] a single question in exchange for that benefit they get from the other folks who come in the door.[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] Leanne: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I mean, it's, even though it's not a membership yet, [00:08:05] it's the churn, right? You don't want people signing up just to unsubscribe the first time you email them. [00:08:10] That's, that's useless. And, you know, you know, the type of people that are most likely to do that [00:08:15] is a founder who has imported every single person he's ever emailed, ever, or [00:08:20] she, I don't want to just pick on the guys here, a founder that has, you know, just taken their personal email [00:08:25] and been like, ah, we've corresponded about something at some point, and now you are on my list, [00:08:30] or, you know, thanks for connecting with me on LinkedIn, you are now subscribed to my [00:08:35] list somehow, like, stuff like that is, is what gives it a bad name.
[00:08:38] So, But on the flip [00:08:40] side of that, when it is specific, like you said, I encouraged one company to start doing a [00:08:45] newsletter, just a weekly one, just, you know, highlighting events. The first one they did, [00:08:50] after I, you know, taught them how to do it, sold, I don't know, like, almost 20 [00:08:55] grand worth of, of, you know, their item, just from, from [00:09:00] that one email that cost them You know, my time in mentorship and then the person who [00:09:05] made it like their effort, but under, you know, a pretty high
[00:09:08] Casey: return.
[00:09:09] [00:09:10] Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, I think you know Newsletters are such a powerful [00:09:15] opportunity in the market right now to drive lead conversion as a known channel but I think that a lot [00:09:20] of people are stuck in the, so, so if I can take kind of a step [00:09:25] up and see how I kind of frame this is that newsletters historically were kind of [00:09:30] this clustered thing that people did all sorts of things with.
[00:09:33] It was like feature updates and team updates and [00:09:35] industry news, and there's 12 different CTAs of what you want folks to do. That's [00:09:40] historically what these newsletters were. And I think that we've gotten to a stage where it's very [00:09:45] important. Step one, this is your fundamentals, first principles, is your newsletter [00:09:50] needs to have a specific goal, right?
[00:09:52] Like, what is this? Is this for lead conversion? Is this to [00:09:55] engage customers and reduce churn? Start by having that very specific goal, because if you [00:10:00] don't have that, everything else falls apart. Right, and I think trying to be everything to [00:10:05] everyone doesn't work. You have too much CTAs. It's not focused. So I think that's the first thing, like, [00:10:10] set that goal.
[00:10:10] The next part, which also related to what you were saying, I think it's so [00:10:15] critical to have an expectation, right? You'd made this note of like, well, why am I even receiving this? [00:10:20] One of the biggest things, if people walked away honestly with like one thing, [00:10:25] from this episode that they could pull out is please, please set a crystal [00:10:30] clear expectation on when someone is going to hear from you and exactly what they are going to [00:10:35] hear about.
[00:10:35] If you say each Friday at 9 a. m. PST, I am going to [00:10:40] send you an actionable growth case study, and I'm going to have three tips on how you can replicate [00:10:45] those results. Boom, they know exactly what they're getting, which is a case study, they know [00:10:50] when they're getting it, and they know what the value point is to them, the three tips they can pull out to [00:10:55] replicate.
[00:10:55] And so if you come in with a clear goal, and then underneath that you set [00:11:00] expectations for exactly when that person can engage, That is going to [00:11:05] start you off on a very good foot, and there's lots of kind of tactics and different things we can get into [00:11:10] if it's of interest. But as a starting point, if you do those two things, you'll [00:11:15] already be ahead of 90 percent of the game.
[00:11:17] Yeah,
[00:11:17] Leanne: and that's, that's that customer centricity, [00:11:20] right? Is that you're, you're telling them what you're selling them. And that makes it a mutual [00:11:25] benefit and gives people a reasonable expectation. So [00:11:30] that they know what they're signing up for. It is what they want. They chose to be there. And, and that's the power [00:11:35] behind the own essay, is that it's, it's a relationship that you're nurturing.
[00:11:39] And [00:11:40] you're nurturing it, and you're able to have a relationship because both people are [00:11:45] involved in it. If you have it one sided, and you're just, you know, shouting to the [00:11:50] void, Why did you choose email to shout into the void?
[00:11:53] Casey: No, I mean, I totally, I totally, agree with you.
[00:11:54] I think that [00:11:55] what you're, what you're underpinning is this idea of trust, right? Everyone always throws out the [00:12:00] word relationship. Oh, this builds relationships. This does this. It's like any actual relationship [00:12:05] that is created in the business world of real life is connected to trust. So if you [00:12:10] come at people and your whole thing is just like pitch, pitch, pitch, sell, sell, sell, and that's [00:12:15] all you do, there's no trust there.
[00:12:16] Person's like, I know you're just going to try to sell me directly. The thing that you [00:12:20] want to do with something like a newsletter is build in actual content that has substance, [00:12:25] that can help, that can support, that can educate, can tell a story, right? [00:12:30] Give them something substantive, that they can identify with.
[00:12:33] And so like an example [00:12:35] with a subject line would be if you, let's use the example I said before about like, say you're sending people growth case study. And you have a subject line that [00:12:40] says how Calendly went from 1 to 10 million ARR by leaning into integrations. [00:12:45] Someone who reads that, who is the right buyer, obviously this is again segmentation, the [00:12:50] right customer.
[00:12:51] But if you're a company, like I used to work for Bonjoro, we were right in that range [00:12:55] of ARR. So if we read that, it's like, oh, this is directly applicable to me. I'm [00:13:00] stoked to click into this and I know exactly what I'm getting. The expectation is crystal clear, [00:13:05] and there's this affinity that I'm going to learn something valuable from this thing.[00:13:10]
[00:13:10] And I think that part of newsletters... It gets lost in this race for people to [00:13:15] just be like, I'm checking the box and I'm going to use this to just like pump, pump, pump my product. [00:13:20] And you absolutely can have emails that promote and push people to go do stuff. I'm not saying [00:13:25] that can't be a part of email, but if that's the saturation, if you don't do anything else other [00:13:30] than just contact them to sell them, you lose the trust.
[00:13:32] Leanne: Yeah, I mean, not every relationship [00:13:35] is a healthy one. And so sometimes your email relationship can be just as, [00:13:40] you know, Jerry Springer toxic. On both sides, you know, us marketers were like, [00:13:45] who is this email? And you know, like, maybe it's like no email at blah, blah, blah company. And we're [00:13:50] like, no, that's not a real person.
[00:13:51] Which we will come to a whole, you [00:13:55] know, how you get emails conversation in a different day. Today we're just going to focus on the email [00:14:00] itself, components. So, so kind of, you mentioned something at some point about the [00:14:05] risks associated with doing email. What are, would you say like the biggest risk is like not doing it or it being like the inflated numbers or?
[00:14:07] What are some of the risks that people [00:14:10] kind of encounter from your point of
[00:14:11] Casey: view? Yeah, well, I mean, first off, [00:14:15] email absolutely can hurt your reputation if done wrong, right? That's the first thing. I think that's [00:14:20] clear. Across the board, from a technical standpoint, if no one reads your emails because they're not high [00:14:25] quality, or people are reporting spam because they don't know why they're hearing from you, that hurts you, right?
[00:14:29] You have a [00:14:30] reputation as a sender. And when you have all of those negative behaviors, [00:14:35] that, that adversely affects you. One thing a lot of people don't know is that [00:14:40] the reputation is actually not just associated with the sending email. This is a common [00:14:45] misconception. It's associated with what you link out to.
[00:14:48] So the people that design inboxes, they're [00:14:50] very smart. They know that people can just grab and spin up a new email all the time. It's a lot [00:14:55] harder to spin up a new website. So in order to prevent people from being spammy, they actually [00:15:00] look at what is the root domain of your calls to action and where you send folks, and that's how they judge a [00:15:05] lot of that reputation.
[00:15:05] So I think that when we think about what can go wrong, it's a [00:15:10] lack of thought into sending the right content to the right folks. It's having way too [00:15:15] high a frequency where you're just bombarding people and you're hitting them way too often. It's a [00:15:20] lack of thought around use of scheduled versus triggered email.
[00:15:24] This is a [00:15:25] big problem that I see. People have their scheduled email, but then they have all these little system triggers they've [00:15:30] set up and they're not mapping that journey out together. So suddenly as time [00:15:35] goes on there just is more and more and more and pretty soon someone signs up for your thing.[00:15:40]
[00:15:40] They get an email, then they do something on the website, they get another email, and they get flooded, [00:15:45] right? And that's a really bad experience. So one of the major risks is, and this is true of [00:15:50] everything you do, right? Like, don't lean in and put attention into a channel [00:15:55] If you're not going to do it with some intentionality and you're not going to have some kind of like purpose going [00:16:00] into that to do it the right way.
[00:16:02] And so I think that to me is the biggest kind of [00:16:05] like overall risk that we face when we look at emails kind of [00:16:10] hurting our reputations by being overly promotional and not following some of those best practices. [00:16:15]
[00:16:15] Leanne: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, just to explicitly state this for [00:16:20] maybe someone who's magically not done email, is that if your [00:16:25] reputation as a sender is harmed, so let's say marketing went overboard and they had the [00:16:30] triggered emails and the scheduled emails, like receiver ends up with 10 emails in one [00:16:35] day and they're just like, you know, maybe they like sign up for a new account and then they're on the [00:16:40] newsletter and it's newsletter day and then they got a thank you for signing up, like, survey, and then they just got too [00:16:45] much.
[00:16:45] So now if they were a freemium user, right, they were, [00:16:50] you know, or a trial user. Now an email to reach out from a sales rep [00:16:55] might go straight to spam and that sales rep will never get an [00:17:00] opportunity to get in front of that customer. Also, let's say it doesn't go to [00:17:05] spam. Mental blocks exist too. That person has already [00:17:10] turned your email into mental white noise.
[00:17:12] They're like, I've already gotten 10 of these, [00:17:15] you have trained me that these are not important. So you've done that, that [00:17:20] psychologically based, you know, reaction, and that conditional classic, like, condi classical conditioning, there we go, I can talk. That, [00:17:25] you know, that it's just fluff, that you're just sending them fluff, because if it was that important, why [00:17:30] is there 10 of them all at once?
[00:17:31] And that comes back to the intentionality. That was a not very [00:17:35] intentional or well thought out approach. And that's going to cost you money. And it's going to cost you [00:17:40] relationships and trust.
[00:17:40] Casey: Totally.
[00:17:41] Leanne: So thank you for calling out those risks because, because they [00:17:45] super duper piss people off, right?
[00:17:46] Like at the end of the day, we're just making people angry. We're not doing our jobs.[00:17:50]
[00:17:50] Casey: And one thing to say there too is just put yourself in the shoes. All of us receive tons of emails.[00:17:55] One of the great starting exercises is like, is there any newsletter or thing that [00:18:00] you like to receive? Like, look at your own, like, almost assuredly, everyone who's listening [00:18:05] into this, who's at all kind of involved in these kind of worlds, who's doing anything marketing related, probably [00:18:10] has.
[00:18:10] 20, 50, 100 newsletters pouring in, and my guess [00:18:15] is, my guess is, there's probably a very, very small pool of those that you actually [00:18:20] look forward to getting. That tiny little pocket, maybe it's a personal hobby that you have, and they [00:18:25] have something cool that's connected to it, like, really think about that.
[00:18:28] Like, what are the ones I follow, I [00:18:30] look forward to, and go through that mental model in your head. Of why are [00:18:35] you excited to get a message from them? What do you, what do you look forward to? What kind of information do they [00:18:40] use? Is it tailored to you? Like, do they use kind of storytelling? [00:18:45] Maybe they include discounts.
[00:18:46] Maybe it's a brand that you just love to support, and when they have a [00:18:50] promo, you want to be on top of it. That's okay. Again, it's the clear expectation [00:18:55] meeting. If that's what you expect, and you're like, they're going to send me promos whenever available for stuff I [00:19:00] want to get anyways, awesome. Again, that totally works.
[00:19:03] So there could be a range, but it [00:19:05] goes back to what is the intent of this newsletter and is it matching my expectation?
[00:19:09] Leanne: [00:19:10] And, you know, just thinking of two clear examples, one B2B and one B2C of newsletters [00:19:15] that, you know, are just well done. I am a fan of [00:19:20] Mutiny's newsletter. And here's why, because they have their [00:19:25] copywriting and their messaging so peak on point.
[00:19:29] They [00:19:30] are talking to marketers. They know that we're a little salty. They [00:19:35] somehow managed to make bad marketing the bad guy in the copy [00:19:40] without explicitly saying this is the bad guy. So they're telling a story, but they aren't [00:19:45] like making it like once upon a time, like it's not boring. It is concise, [00:19:50] it is to the point, and it is peak targeting that intimately knows how [00:19:55] their people talk, what they want to know.
[00:19:57] What they find interesting like the case studies [00:20:00] and it is it is delivering value upon value a little bit of reminder if you [00:20:05] don't know what we do, this is what we do. And then, hey, if you want to join our community, we have a [00:20:10] community. So, like, it is just. excellently executed. [00:20:15] It's once a week and it's just I just like it.
[00:20:17] I like it a lot and I don't apologize. Sorry. I'm not [00:20:20] sorry. The other one that that is the B2C example [00:20:25] is this brand that has a children's product [00:20:30] and they have a very high quality a little bit higher price point children's [00:20:35] product. It's called the nugget and it's basically cushions that save your couch so [00:20:40] that your children don't destroy your home But they can be creative and and they have this very like aesthetic [00:20:45] thing and they they have releases of different colors or You know, there can be a [00:20:50] waitlist to even order one of these things.
[00:20:52] And moms and moms groups, like, it's a little [00:20:55] viral. Like, they just, they go nuts over it. And their emails are, [00:21:00] like, very, and their brand is exactly the same brand every [00:21:05] single place you encounter them. The same imagery, same, you know, pictures, [00:21:10] same language, same tone, everything. It's just smoothly [00:21:15] all co like, cohesive and, and just very well executed.
[00:21:19] And [00:21:20] the reason why these two stand out to me is because they [00:21:25] are integrated with everything else that these two companies do. [00:21:30] They are exactly to who their market is, and they are [00:21:35] strongly, siloed, niched, down. Like, they aren't, they aren't for [00:21:40] everyone. They are exactly to you, whoever you are, you know, [00:21:45] and, and they are the same across their platforms and encounters.
[00:21:49] Casey: I love [00:21:50] that. I love that. Those are those are both phenomenal examples I'm aware of mutiny's [00:21:55] newsletter, which I also like and I think there's I've heard great things about it One that I [00:22:00] really like is is profit. Well now paddle they got acquired I do a lot of stuff in the [00:22:05] software world and they just have a lot of like very tangible We [00:22:10] studied 20, 000 companies.
[00:22:11] Here's exactly what we found with pricing. Like, do these three things. Just [00:22:15] stuff that you can then take and implement and test. And so for me, in like a business [00:22:20] context, I like when someone says, Look, we studied 20, 000 XYZ, and [00:22:25] here's what we found, and here's how you can do it. Giving someone just something that direct, like [00:22:30] so much insight today is like general, And so when you give tangible things, [00:22:35] I always really appreciate that. And so in a business context, that's another a great piece. I [00:22:40] think storytelling and something that's relatable is really powerful and specifics [00:22:45] and context is also really powerful.
[00:22:47] Leanne: Yeah, I agree completely. You know, I think that[00:22:50] There's a lot of long term value and and you know, we've kind of gotten [00:22:55] into the weeds about like how to do it So I kind of want to hear from [00:23:00] you with you know Not just your experience as someone who gets the newsletter, but you're like [00:23:05] professional advice on this what are some of the like?
[00:23:09] [00:23:10] Data driven little key points that you want us to
[00:23:12] Casey: know about. Yeah, I think [00:23:15] that's, that's a great question. So a couple things I think will be really important to you [00:23:20] getting, like kind of tactical things that will be really important for you driving success. So the first one we [00:23:25] touched about broadly, but I want to reiterate because it's kind of the initial entry point, which is just that subject line.
[00:23:29] [00:23:30] Just again, remember, I know there's a lot of people that are tempted to use [00:23:35] curiosity or use mystery or do all these things. I strongly encourage people to just [00:23:40] be direct about what the benefit the person is going to get out of this thing is. [00:23:45] When you are flooded and you see that mystery thing, a lot of times you're just not going to [00:23:50] click on it because you're like, I don't have time to jump in and see if this is relevant.
[00:23:53] I don't want to be clickbaited.[00:23:55] So, as a starting point, set a subject line up. Like the one example I used of use [00:24:00] case. How Cal only went 1 to 10 million using X. That's obviously a very specific [00:24:05] audience, right? But for that very specific audience, that really speaks to them. If they're opting in because [00:24:10] they want to learn growth stories from A to B.
[00:24:12] That is really powerful. And I want to [00:24:15] underscore the specificity part. Like if they just said how company had [00:24:20] exponential growth. It's like, it's kind of general. You're not sure how relevant it is. But if you [00:24:25] capture folks that are in that spot, it's like imagine that you run a podcast or a [00:24:30] YouTube and they talk about how to go to a thousand downloads.
[00:24:33] That's really relevant if you're [00:24:35] starting out. But if you're at the next stage, you might want to know how to go ten to a hundred thousand or how to go ten to a [00:24:40] million. And so, first thing is, have a subject line that is clear. [00:24:45] paints that benefit, and they know kind of what they're getting. After that, I think it's really [00:24:50] valuable whenever possible to have an intro section that kind of [00:24:55] establishes a starting point or a challenge.
[00:24:57] This gets into a little bit of the narrative piece. So [00:25:00] for Calendly, like where were they stuck? Like why weren't they growing, right? And that example [00:25:05] I use, that I think helps again create that affinity. So someone clicks in and then [00:25:10] they see like, you know, I have the same problem. I'm stuck at this same plateau.
[00:25:14] [00:25:15] And so now they're really interested. They want to go deeper. So number one is you set up the problem. [00:25:20] Number two, it's really important to make sure that things are skimmable. And so I [00:25:25] strongly recommend use bolding, break up bodies of text. Ask yourself this [00:25:30] very simple question in three seconds. What will they be able to skim [00:25:35] and find?
[00:25:35] And if you can break that down by headers that just outline, [00:25:40] like in the case of if you have a growth case study with three specific replicable tips, have [00:25:45] the one line for each of those replicable tips as headers. Because what happens is, this is the way a lot of us [00:25:50] operate, especially in the business world.
[00:25:51] You see three, you go like to the first one, you're like, Oh, I already do that. [00:25:55] Nope, second one isn't relevant because of X, Y, Z. Oh, that third one, that's interesting. I haven't seen [00:26:00] someone talk about that. It's that one Little nugget of insight. This [00:26:05] is how we digest Business information right people listening to this podcast.
[00:26:09] I'm sure it's the exact [00:26:10] same way. They're like, oh, yeah, I know that I know that Oh, huh? Actually that that third thing you [00:26:15] said that's interesting. That's something I might actually test And implement. So I think the second [00:26:20] bucket is to really focus on skimmability. Understand that people move through this very [00:26:25] quickly.
[00:26:25] And so I think that's really important.
[00:26:27] Leanne: Think about your emails [00:26:30] between your colleagues and your coworkers, right? If someone's writing you a novel, [00:26:35] does it make you irrationally angry? If so, don't do that [00:26:40] in your business prospecting.
[00:26:41] You know, remember that the customers are inside [00:26:45] and outside and to, to know that people read emails, but how many times have [00:26:50] you said to yourself, God, people just don't read email these days? Well, no, they never did. And [00:26:55] you do need to break it into these points to get their attention. So, so that's a [00:27:00] personal thing that I feel very, very passionately about for, for no good reason, but, but yeah, like, [00:27:05] I just, please, for, for everyone's sake, just put some headers, break it up, [00:27:10] and if it's so long, maybe it shouldn't be an email.
[00:27:14] Maybe it really should [00:27:15] be a meeting.
[00:27:15] Casey: I think that the idea that most people do [00:27:20] way too much instead of too little, I think is very relevant as a, as a litmus test here. [00:27:25] I mean, I've been across a lot of channels and with the exception of maybe Reddit. I don't really [00:27:30] know of any channels where just writing massively, hugely dense stuff is going to give [00:27:35] you the best results, right?
[00:27:36] Maybe Medium, that's, that's another one people go kind of long form, but like [00:27:40] know your channel, know your channel. Email is super saturated. You want to deliver [00:27:45] something that is valuable or interesting. In a very digestible nugget of time [00:27:50] and that links into the next thing around like calls to action I know the vast [00:27:55] majority of people that have delved into email have probably heard this from a million places I'm going to say it anyways [00:28:00] have one to two ctas max don't have 20 different calls to [00:28:05] action It's just too dense.
[00:28:06] It's hard to digest people don't know like oh should I go to this? [00:28:10] I see this and it frustrates me so much in the tech world with onboarding. They go [00:28:15] like do this step, link out, do this step two, link out, do this step three. I'm like, that's not how [00:28:20] people operate. They don't just keep going back to their inbox to try to find your buried email to [00:28:25] walk them through the steps.
[00:28:26] Just send them step one and then once they do it, you can send them step two [00:28:30] later. But like don't just nest, that's not how people work. That's not how they [00:28:35] digest information. So I think having That 1 [00:28:40] 2 CTAs max is, is huge. One other thing that I feel really strongly [00:28:45] on that I see very few people do is please don't be afraid to bring in [00:28:50] outside other people's content.
[00:28:52] Think about the lens of what is most [00:28:55] valuable for my customers. I deal with a lot of software companies all the time. I bring in stuff from Saster. I bring [00:29:00] in stuff from ProfitWell. I bring in stuff from A16Z. Whatever is valuable to my [00:29:05] audience, I'm going from the lens of A major part purpose of this newsletter is to build [00:29:10] trust with my audience and going outside and just saying I'm going to grab whatever things are [00:29:15] best for you, whether that's a blog, whether it's a podcast, whether it's a medium episode, and I don't care if it's [00:29:20] mine, I just want to help you know and understand this problem better.
[00:29:24] [00:29:25] That, I think, builds a tremendous amount of trust. And here's the kicker. When you do [00:29:30] that, you can actually still use tags and different things that you can do internally [00:29:35] to understand that person better. So if they're always clicking on, like, pricing stuff, I'm like, oh, [00:29:40] that person should get more pricing content.
[00:29:42] And I can view that from how much [00:29:45] they've clicked on that call to action that's related to that outside content. So you can still [00:29:50] gain direct value and understanding from your audience. But simultaneously, [00:29:55] you're signaling to them, this isn't just about me trying to like promote and push and sell [00:30:00] stuff to you, this is about me genuinely trying to help you.
[00:30:03] And it's crazy to [00:30:05] me that I would say 99 out of 100 of the newsletters that I look [00:30:10] at are so scared to do that. They're so scared, not only even in newsletters, even on social, [00:30:15] never bringing outside people's content, they never share it. I think it's a huge disservice.
[00:30:19] Leanne: [00:30:20] I, I remember something within the past 10 years was listening to this person [00:30:25] explain how to start a newsletter that, that creates revenue just for being a [00:30:30] newsletter.
[00:30:30] And all they did was curate other people's content and send it to [00:30:35] a distribution list of theirs. And that's how they grew to like hundreds of [00:30:40] thousands of subscribers. was that it wasn't their original thoughts. They [00:30:45] actually spent less than an hour every Sunday just putting together the top [00:30:50] 10 things from the last week that you need to know about.
[00:30:52] and it was like, magical. And, I know [00:30:55] that sometimes we get so stuck in our own content, calendars and strategies, [00:31:00] but, you know, we don't exist in a vacuum. And in bringing in other [00:31:05] perspectives or other things to support brings us credibility because it shows that social [00:31:10] proof. that other people are aligned with what our messaging is too.
[00:31:14] Casey: [00:31:15] Yeah, that's such a good point. I mean, authority, I believe we could have a whole [00:31:20] another hour long chat about the importance of authority and trust in the world [00:31:25] today. Like, look, anything that we say today on marketing is not going to have the same impact as if Seth [00:31:30] Godin said it, right? Or insert, insert said marketing leader.
[00:31:33] And so if Seth [00:31:35] Godin says something and it totally ties in with a message that I'm trying to deliver, [00:31:40] Awesome. Let me bring in Seth Godin's blog, Seth Godin's quote, and say, look, in [00:31:45] his book, Purple Cow, Seth Godin is talking about XYZ, which perfectly matched. [00:31:50] Amazing, right? Like, you now took authority from a source that people know and trust, and you [00:31:55] used it to substantiate your point that you're trying to get across, right?
[00:31:59] But you [00:32:00] brought in that outside authority, and... So much today, people are so [00:32:05] leery and careful of stuff that comes directly from brands because everyone's like, you're [00:32:10] just trying to sell me. I know that you're trying to sell me. I just had a conversation recently where someone's like, I don't, I [00:32:15] don't trust competitor pages ever.
[00:32:16] Like when they put it on their own website, when I go to someone's site and they have [00:32:20] that little grid of like us and the competitor and they're all nice colors and the competitor is all [00:32:25] gray and they're missing all these things. And it's like, People don't trust [00:32:30] those things. Like, you see that, like, I don't know if these companies think that the prospects are dumb.
[00:32:34] [00:32:35] But they don't trust these things. And so, I think that there's a huge opportunity [00:32:40] to build trust through that outside authority play. By deferring, like, other [00:32:45] people said this. This is stuff that's coming in, not from us, but from other folks, and this is their experience. [00:32:50] And so, yeah, I think that's super important.
[00:32:52] Yeah, and, and it
[00:32:53] Leanne: also puts you on the same [00:32:55] team, oppositional, And you know, me versus [00:33:00] you, or, you know, you have to be with your walls up because you're worried that I'm going to sell you. Now we're both. [00:33:05] In the same cohort, both viewing this third thing and it puts [00:33:10] us on the same page and we are now collaborators and we are now [00:33:15] the same instead of, I think I'm better than you.
[00:33:17] You think I'm better than you. I'm chasing you. It's, it, it [00:33:20] takes that away. Which is another way to, to bring people in. This is all we're supposed to [00:33:25] do at the end of the day, bring people in respectfully, kindly in [00:33:30] that non toxic relationship way. I love these conversations because we could talk about so [00:33:35] many parts of it and, and, you know, it kind of also brings up the idea of, [00:33:40] of, you know, when you're looking at brands to, to disperse as well as your own content is [00:33:45] you, you don't want to create an echo chamber, you want to create a community and there's a difference.
[00:33:49] [00:33:50] the difference is you want to bring up some contrarian points of view and you want to [00:33:55] address, you know, where you fall and how that may be reasonable for certain circumstances and [00:34:00] why you're in your spot. And you can still have room for dialogue and [00:34:05] discourse. And that's where the, the line is different from echo chamber [00:34:10] to community.
[00:34:11] And so sometimes even bringing in ones that say something that you don't agree [00:34:15] with. Can be a way to still build authority and build collaboration because you can [00:34:20] say hey, you know I haven't thought about this had you and then all of a sudden you're having [00:34:25] a continued conversation about it
[00:34:26] Casey: I love that.
[00:34:27] I think that's that is another thing that [00:34:30] so few people do right? And there's so much echo chamber and [00:34:35] everything across every social channel cost every distribution So again, it's like if you can show [00:34:40] people like I'm willing to bring that into the fold I'm willing to incorporate that in Again, a [00:34:45] tremendous boost in trust from folks and kind of connected to your community point [00:34:50] too.
[00:34:50] One thing we haven't really gotten too much into is like how to get people to respond or kind of connection, but [00:34:55] ask people specific questions. Get them involved like at, you know, try to learn about them. [00:35:00] I can guarantee you that you're gonna get way more momentum and velocity [00:35:05] with your email asset if you're asking questions and getting people to share and getting people involved [00:35:10] in the process if Someone has responded to 10 emails that you've sent out That [00:35:15] person is so much more likely to six months later still be with you They've invested the [00:35:20] emotional time already into being part of your circuit And so it's a [00:35:25] phenomenal point around community, which is really at its core, a two [00:35:30] sided thing.
[00:35:30] It's, it's value being produced from both sides, bring them into the fold, learn about them. [00:35:35] And that's, that's, I think, another really valuable part of any kind of community that you create.
[00:35:39] Leanne: [00:35:40] So, is there a time where, okay, here's a real life one, like, I, today, when we're recording this, August [00:35:45] 24th, I don't have a newsletter for my podcast, and I have my reasons.
[00:35:49] But, [00:35:50] you know, they're, they're all very fluid, so let's talk about when and [00:35:55] where it's the wrong fit for someone to, like, really go after,[00:36:00] an email kind of play, like, you know, from my point of view, the [00:36:05] reason why I don't have one is I, don't have time. And that's [00:36:10] really the number one reason is, is I don't have a good reason.
[00:36:13] I just don't have time. And [00:36:15] the, the second one is that I don't have something that I'm necessarily trying to, I don't have a CTA. You know, if I, if I were to have a [00:36:20] CTA, it would be like, listen to this episode, which is a great CTA to have. But it [00:36:25] feels too self serving to do on a recurring basis.
[00:36:27] Casey: Yeah, I [00:36:30] think to give some personal thoughts on that, I think you want to ask yourself, always with any kind of channel [00:36:35] strategy, like why? Why am I doing it? What is the novel, unique thing that I'm going to deliver in that kind of interaction? [00:36:40] So in the case of something like this, maybe it's like, this is bandwidth allowing, [00:36:45] right?
[00:36:45] But if you were to do something bandwidth allowing, ask yourself, what novel thing am I going to do? So sure, you can [00:36:50] pull out some highlights and make it slightly more digestible, but the way I would approach it is, Maybe I give [00:36:55] people a worksheet, maybe I give people something interactive or that, that's like a tangible give that someone's [00:37:00] like encouraged to go to your website and then go do a step of behaviors that they [00:37:05] can actually replicate.
[00:37:06] Maybe you like lay those out and it's like have a hook, have a [00:37:10] subject line like this, have a hook that does this or this and they can write it out and have something. Like tangible they hold [00:37:15] on to now. I'm looking forward to engaging with that episode I'm cross [00:37:20] pollinating more traffic in because i'm like, oh cool I'm gonna be able to directly plug this in so [00:37:25] That would be an example of a specific value point That isn't just emailing people and being like [00:37:30] my episode went live on friday.
[00:37:31] You should watch it which is like You know, like [00:37:35] maybe that that scoops in a couple people, but it feels very vanilla. I don't think that that kind of [00:37:40] model is going to have a ton of success, but if you do something that is interesting and can [00:37:45] kind of incorporate that in, that's where I'm like, awesome.
[00:37:47] Whenever I'm talking to people about newsletters, I'm [00:37:50] always asking them why, right, which goes down to our goal. And then also like that creative [00:37:55] aspect. There's so much out there. How are you going to do something that's different? And so when you deliver a [00:38:00] value point, there's probably lots of different directions you could go depending on focus.
[00:38:04] But when you deliver a [00:38:05] value point, I think that's what creates the differentiation.
[00:38:07] Leanne: I mean, I, I, I do have a template of what I would do, just, just for, you know, for, to, to kind of, I don't know, I can't even find the words. Just, just to, you know, just to throw it out there, you know, Leah, it isn't a complete idiot.
[00:38:07] No, I'm kidding. Sometimes I am, though. What the way that I would do it for this specific podcast, I do [00:38:10] have a template of what I would do, but bandwidth doesn't allow because I am, I'm doing a million [00:38:15] things. But you know, I think that you called out some really important things. The digital download [00:38:20] is huge in providing value because it's an asset, it's a worksheet, it's a, you know, to do, [00:38:25] it's a listical, it's something that, it's digestible and small.
[00:38:28] but delivers value.[00:38:30] and when you explain to people the value it gives and who needs it most, [00:38:35] then you're, you're giving them reason to follow through on that, that CTA. And that can be another great [00:38:40] way to build relationship and rapport and see what resonates with your people and what doesn't.[00:38:45]
[00:38:45] Because maybe you think that your people care about this [00:38:50] listicle and, and no one, no one does. It just crickets. And, and maybe you do [00:38:55] a different one. You're like, wow, that got a great response. Maybe I should go in that [00:39:00] direction. Totally. So, but, but, you know, I think the, the, if we think about it from when is this the wrong fit [00:39:05] is that it's the wrong fit.
[00:39:06] If you can't provide value, if you cannot [00:39:10] give something that makes people better for having given you the time of [00:39:15] their eyesight and attention, Maybe you shouldn't
[00:39:18] Casey: send it. [00:39:20] Yeah, I, I a hundred percent agree. And I want to, I want to push one of the, I think differentiation is such [00:39:25] a good part of this.
[00:39:25] Like if people can just get this information elsewhere, we've gotten to an age. There's so [00:39:30] many lead magnets. There's so many stuff out there. It's basically just blog content. It's like, give me your [00:39:35] email so that I can send you something that I should be able to just find on the web. Like, nobody's excited about that.
[00:39:39] That's not [00:39:40] unique. That's not like, that's just not the world that we live in. And so again, this goes to [00:39:45] the point of like, don't just check boxes. I need to have a lead magnet. I need to do this thing. It's like, how is [00:39:50] this truly differentiated from what someone is going to receive afterwards? Because it is so hard, [00:39:55] like, I am fully cognizant that all of us, myself included, we throw this value [00:40:00] word all the time.
[00:40:00] It has to produce value if this thing is valuable. And there's a little bit of like a, like, what [00:40:05] exactly does that mean? One way to view it is like, is it something that is [00:40:10] differentiated than where they can find it somewhere else that produces a specific result? [00:40:15] And if the answer is yes to both of those things, that's probably something that produces value for folks.[00:40:20]
[00:40:20] Yeah, or do
[00:40:21] Leanne: you say in a way that they can relate to or understand or inspires [00:40:25] them differently, right? Like, a doctor telling you, like, hey, like, on [00:40:30] TikTok, you know, there's some... Allergist, Dr. Rubin. And he, he talks about, you know, a [00:40:35] lot of things and he says something about like, Oh, well, you know, use this instead of Benadryl [00:40:40] because blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:40:41] And he gives his professional opinion. You can find that on WebMD. You can find that by [00:40:45] Googling. But you may not know or you may not take it from that authority [00:40:50] or it may not be packaged in a way that that brings it [00:40:55] to you in a way that is personally relevant and differentiated. [00:41:00] Yeah. It makes it personal, or at least you, it builds [00:41:05] rapport in a sense where he's a trustworthy source of information, so if there [00:41:10] is a lot of misinformation out there, or a lot of bad information Information [00:41:15] where, you know, it used to be like sales needs to, you know, really, you got to do a [00:41:20] turnover and hard sales flows.
[00:41:22] You got to be a shark, you know, there's a lot of that information out [00:41:25] in the world, but if you are selling a course on how to be better at sales, you know. [00:41:30] It might be a differentiator for you to say don't [00:41:35] listen to the assholes. Don't like listen to this instead. Yeah,
[00:41:39] Casey: very [00:41:40] well said that packaging is definitely a core part.
[00:41:43] I 100 percent agree. And [00:41:45] there's so many different groups that a big thing of marketing in general is about affinity. [00:41:50] Right, and do I feel like I see myself in this brand and there's so [00:41:55] many different diverse groups and perspectives And so making sure that like if you're a person [00:42:00] who can bring that unique perspective exactly as you just articulated You can package different [00:42:05] that still has in my opinion differentiated value Because nobody else is speaking [00:42:10] that in a way that is digestible for this demographic or that demographic.
[00:42:13] That totally makes sense. [00:42:15] Yeah,
[00:42:15] Leanne: or if you have amazing brand recognition. If Harvard Business Review [00:42:20] emails me a case study, I'm going to consider it differently than if someone [00:42:25] who's trying to, you know, I'm just gonna give it Some credence, some [00:42:30] credibility because of the brand. It's that's presenting it.
[00:42:33] So there's, there's, you know, to, to continue down the same thought path. All right, we're going to, we're going to come to our last two questions. We're, we're going to do it. Casey, I think I've asked you [00:42:35] this before, so I want to see if this has changed. What do you think the future of marketing is and what do you think it
[00:42:39] Casey: [00:42:40] should be?
[00:42:40] Yeah, it's a great question, and I actually kind of feel like my [00:42:45] answer to this may have changed since the last time we changed, talked, because there's been some massive changes. [00:42:50] in marketing off of the back of technology changes like AI, right? And so I think that what's [00:42:55] going to happen is technology is going to continue to change marketing in pretty profound [00:43:00] ways.
[00:43:00] We're going to see like SEO as a category. SEO is a major way that a lot of people build up [00:43:05] their marketing strategy and it is currently getting flooded at rates that have [00:43:10] never been seen before with hundreds of thousands of new things that are inputted from [00:43:15] AI. And so I think Two points here.
[00:43:18] Creativity, I think, will [00:43:20] still always be the big differentiating point. The future of marketing is folks that are [00:43:25] truly able to bring creativity and affinity into the light. [00:43:30] Information recall or gathering information or sourcing is going to increasingly become a tool that [00:43:35] people need to use. Right?
[00:43:36] Like, in the past, I know, like, I go online, I'm searching all these [00:43:40] shows, I'm going through these articles. There's a big research phase. Well, look, AI is going to make it so that [00:43:45] you can do that a thousand times more efficiently. So, I think, I never want [00:43:50] to be one of those people that's like, Oh, just ignore this thing.
[00:43:52] Because you're going to be left behind if you ignore [00:43:55] automation, if you ignore AI. But at the same time, I also don't believe [00:44:00] in pushing people to say like, Just have this replace everything you do. Because there's this creative element, this [00:44:05] human element that is going to be important. So I'd say the two pieces are, focus on the creative [00:44:10] aspect of it, and make sure you're using these new technologies as tools [00:44:15] to amplify your work.
[00:44:16] Yeah,
[00:44:16] Leanne: I, I agree. I think that, I just want to call [00:44:20] out that we've known for a long time that algorithms are flawed, and that [00:44:25] they are simply outputting based on what they are told. to output. [00:44:30] And so what we want to make sure that we do with our creativity is be inclusive [00:44:35] and look for those point of views that aren't necessarily those [00:44:40] that were involved in creating the algorithms, or that they might [00:44:45] reinforce just because of other biases.
[00:44:48] And so just like when we're [00:44:50] analyzing our data, we want to do a bias check. Like, is this, You know, slanted [00:44:55] one way or another, and is it, can I argue that this is, you [00:45:00] know, actually factual or actually, you know, inclusive or those types of things. So, [00:45:05] that's something we want to consider that, it's not perfect, it's a tool and that we have to be the [00:45:10] guardians
[00:45:10] Casey: of the tools.
[00:45:11] Yeah, absolutely. That's such a good point. Like, this is, as [00:45:15] we see more Google, ResultZero, ChatGPT, all of these are like this process of just [00:45:20] telling you like, this is the answer, right? It's not even like, here's 10 answers. It's like, this is the one answer. So [00:45:25] bias is obviously going to be way more prevalent in there.
[00:45:27] And I think hopefully over time, these engines [00:45:30] learn to incorporate diverse opinions and advantage points and bring those in. [00:45:35] These technologies are always fluid and they're always going to be incredibly flawed. And so I think that [00:45:40] having a pulse check on that is a very smart idea.
[00:45:42] Leanne: All right.
[00:45:43] Our last question. That's the [00:45:45] debate. It's usually kind of a whale of a question is what is a question someone should ask you, [00:45:50] but they don't. So where is someone where they're just missing the mark or, you know, something [00:45:55] that you just want to call out that you wish people would just do more often?
[00:45:58] Casey: Yeah, it's a great question.[00:46:00]
[00:46:00] I I'm going to go to one of the biggest holes that I see in marketing overall, and [00:46:05] that is distribution. So I very rarely have someone come to me and say [00:46:10] like, Hey, Casey, how do I distribute this campaign or this idea? Right? It's always like, how do I [00:46:15] create the right campaign on this channel? How do I dominate X?
[00:46:17] How do I dominate Y? They're not thinking [00:46:20] about actual, like, okay, I did all this stuff. I put it together. I [00:46:25] post it and crickets, right? I post it onto this channel. I get four engagements and now I'm [00:46:30] feeling frustrated. Like nobody saw this, nobody engaged this. One of the things that I've worked very hard in the [00:46:35] last handful of years with folks is to help them build Distribution plans.
[00:46:39] So [00:46:40] let me get into exactly what that might look like. So the first thing is proliferating content widely [00:46:45] yourself So when you think of a content, let's say you have a you have a little calendar where you're mapping stuff out on [00:46:50] Tuesday I'm gonna post my blog, right? So you're gonna post that blog but maybe you're gonna take [00:46:55] some clips of that and you're also gonna put it on Twitter Maybe you're going to take a really interesting part of the [00:47:00] conversation.
[00:47:00] You're going to post that onto LinkedIn. You're going to post this other thing onto a couple of specific Facebook [00:47:05] groups. You're going to go to Reddit and you're going to start a conversation on some aspect of that. That's a scary one. They're [00:47:10] going to yell at you, but you know, you might try it. Right. So the first, the first thing is internal.
[00:47:14] The [00:47:15] second thing is don't be scared of working with partners and bringing people in. I remember I [00:47:20] was talking with one founder and I was like, yeah, like find partners, bring people in. And they looked at me like [00:47:25] really quizzically. They're like, well, why would someone else publish my con? Like, why would they [00:47:30] share a snippet that involved my thing?
[00:47:31] And I said, if your content is so promotional, [00:47:35] then nobody else would want to share it. That is a problem. It should be the kind of thing [00:47:40] that, Hey, if we both serve this audience. There's an opportunity for me to take some of your insights. We [00:47:45] can cross pollinate wisdom. This research report that I just compiled in our industry is going to be [00:47:50] relevant to a lot of folks.
[00:47:51] So be building content with that [00:47:55] distribution as an end point in mind. And if you do that, when you get to that final thing, they [00:48:00] absolutely are going to want to share it because it's relevant, it's valuable to their audience, right? So thinking about [00:48:05] distribution is a great...
[00:48:07] Rarely asked question that you could incorporate it.
[00:48:09] Leanne: And [00:48:10] I think it's, it's that difference between, if I build it, they will come and, and giving [00:48:15] their, giving them somewhere to come to, another example of, of a campaign, [00:48:20] like a full, fully integrated, fully distributed campaign. All right.
[00:48:24] It's [00:48:25] there's a let's say it's award seasons on TV, right? Let's say like, there's commercials [00:48:30] ahead of time. There's, you know, partnerships with the sponsors. [00:48:35] There's all sorts of content that's going out for a period of time preceding the event. [00:48:40] The event happens. There's other people involved in the event, there's sponsors, there's [00:48:45] the talent themselves, there's lots of stuff going into it, and then [00:48:50] after the event, there's an after show, where you talk more about the event.
[00:48:54] [00:48:55] And I think what people forget about in marketing or in startups is that you [00:49:00] can't just post it once. And put your whole, like, hedge all of your [00:49:05] bets on a single post. That's silly. That's not, that's crazy.[00:49:10] You know, let's say you have 10, 000 followers. You know, only a certain percentage of your [00:49:15] followers are even going to see that one post.
[00:49:17] And, and then what about the people that, [00:49:20] you know, are unfamiliar, that aren't following? Like, like, how are they going to get it? Like, so, to your point, [00:49:25] you know, build something that people want to share. Build it easy for them to share, [00:49:30] help them share it, and then put it all over the place in different [00:49:35] ways that are, that are based on the platforms in which You're doing it.
[00:49:38] Casey: I love that. [00:49:40] That's partners in general, right? Like, any kind of partnerships that you enter into, don't think of it as a [00:49:45] one shot. It's one of the biggest mistakes in partnerships is, hey, let's run a newsletter collab and they run it and they're [00:49:50] like, oh, I didn't get any sales. Like, okay, this isn't worthwhile.
[00:49:52] Or I ran a podcast sponsorship and I [00:49:55] didn't get any direct sales. Well, if you do that for one episode, if you do that for one newsletter [00:50:00] blast, like, it's not a relationship. This is the first time people are being introduced. But when you [00:50:05] find there's a person that someone trusts, like the host of a podcast, they talk about something once, then they talk [00:50:10] about it twice, and they talk about it three times, right?
[00:50:12] In an authentic way, not like a super pitchy [00:50:15] way, but a real authentic way, and that happens over time, that does produce results. But [00:50:20] unfortunately, most people drop shit too early on partnerships. They pull out because they're just [00:50:25] looking for immediate results. If you're looking for immediate results, go run general PPC [00:50:30] ads, right, on Google, on Facebook.
[00:50:32] If you're leaning into partnership plays [00:50:35] on whatever channels those are, think of it as an actual relationship that you [00:50:40] build over time. That is the best way that partnerships [00:50:45] function. And then you're leaning into the trust of that partner that you're working with. [00:50:50] Yeah,
[00:50:50] Leanne: I mean, just to follow on that, I've definitely Helps, companies that we're going to [00:50:55] do influencer marketing and I was like, look, if you're going to pay them 8, [00:51:00] 000 or you're going to comp them this thing that costs 8, 000, you know, you could get [00:51:05] for, you know, the number of impressions of their entire audience.
[00:51:08] If we spent that exact [00:51:10] same 8, 000. on Google ads or [00:51:15] Facebook retargeting. This is what you would get from it. Are you going to get it from that person from that [00:51:20] one time spot? Are you? You tell me. If, if, if it's just a brand awareness thing, [00:51:25] then yes, you can't always, it's not apples to apples, but if you do a relationship [00:51:30] thing where it's, it's not just the, yeah, today we're doing this once.
[00:51:33] But when you start [00:51:35] to. Have it build over time with multiple touches it changes so I think that's [00:51:40] a really great thing to call out is distribution quality of distribution [00:51:45] and realistic expectations associated with the distribution
[00:51:49] Casey: 100 percent[00:51:50]
[00:51:50] Leanne: awesome. All right Well, is there anything that you have like coming up or coming out that like we should kind [00:51:55] of like keep our eyes peeled out?
[00:51:56] For
[00:51:57] Casey: I would just say that if folks are interested [00:52:00] in running Email automation, right? If they're interested in getting into this world, or if they have something,[00:52:05] that they're wanting to test. I think us at ActiveCampaign, one of the things that is [00:52:10] really kind of a strong point is automation. So what, what it means is say you're trying to [00:52:15] move someone through a sequence, but as soon as they buy, you want to make sure you pull that person out right away.
[00:52:19] So it's a quality [00:52:20] experience. They're not getting repetitive emails. Oh, I just bought the car. Then you sent me a discount for 10%. Like [00:52:25] that's the worst experience. So make sure that you build flows. [00:52:30] that have the right logic. I think sometimes people start in, and I totally understand, you want to start [00:52:35] bare bones, as cheap as possible, but there's a couple of just small things if you make sure you do your [00:52:40] due diligence.
[00:52:41] It comes back to that trust building, it comes back to that quality [00:52:45] component. So we know we're not the only player in that world, but if people [00:52:50] are wanting to get in there, we'd always love to support people at ActiveCampaign. com. But regardless of the [00:52:55] platform you use, Get in there with some intent, get in there, build [00:53:00] something, start testing up and create that owned asset.
[00:53:02] Create something that is going to build with you over [00:53:05] time and is going to have that cumulative effect that isn't going to just be, I turn on [00:53:10] ads. And as soon as I turn off ads, I'm back to square one, have something that creates some momentum for you. [00:53:15] Yeah,
[00:53:15] Leanne: absolutely. Create something worth sharing. I love it.
[00:53:19] [00:53:20] It's so simple, but so hard. Thank you so much for joining me. If [00:53:25] anyone wants to find Casey, he's on LinkedIn, he's all over the place, but it's Casey with a C [00:53:30] and I'm Leanne. If you have questions for me, just email me at info at [00:53:35] Markigy, M A R K I G Y dot com. And thank you so much [00:53:40] for taking the time to listen.
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