True leadership is about listening. You need to listen to your customers, your employees, and all your stakeholders if you want to succeed in any business. And that’s especially true at the startup stage — and doubly so when engaging in category creation. That’s something our latest guest, Crystal Black, understands all too well. Across her wealth of experience with early-stage category creators, she has learned that success stems from a solid understanding of the stories that matter in a business — and using that understanding to cultivate an environment where everyone can bring their full selves to the table, showing up authentically and honestly.
True leadership is about listening.
You need to listen to your customers, your employees, and all your stakeholders if you want to succeed in any business.
And that’s especially true at the startup stage — and doubly so when engaging in category creation.
That’s something our latest guest, Crystal Black, understands all too well. Across her wealth of experience with early-stage category creators, she has learned that success stems from a solid understanding of the stories that matter in a business — and using that understanding to cultivate an environment where everyone can bring their full selves to the table, showing up authentically and honestly.
In this episode of Markigy, Crystal and Leanne discuss:
The actionable takeaways mentioned in this episode are:
To learn more subscribe to Markigy with Leanne Dow-Weimer.
This episode was produced and brought to you by Reignite Media.
[00:00:00] [00:00:05] Hey marketers, put your listening ears on for this episode of Markigy, [00:00:10] the science of marketing strategy. We share the stories and strategies of [00:00:15] marketing and revenue experts, focusing on building value for the business and customer. [00:00:20] We're the blend of science, creativity, and strategy we need to make Markigy.[00:00:25]
[00:00:29] Leanne DW: [00:00:30] Hello! This is Leanne with Markigy, and I'm joined today by Crys Black,
[00:00:33] Leanne DW: Crys, thank [00:00:35] you so much for joining me. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and what it is [00:00:40] you do. Hi Leanne,
[00:00:41] Crystal Black: thanks for having me on today. I'm really excited to be here. So I'm Crys Black,
[00:00:44] Crystal Black: but [00:00:45] all of my focus is on early stage tech startups, generally B2B, SaaS [00:00:50] companies.
[00:00:50] Crystal Black: I do advisory work for, say, pre seed companies. I do some [00:00:55] consulting for Series A companies, and then my main focus, of course, is in those Series B [00:01:00] companies that finally need full time marketing support. I'm often joking that I'm one of the first [00:01:05] business adults in the room working with scientists and engineers to really bring their dreams to [00:01:10] market.
[00:01:10] Crystal Black: Awesome.
[00:01:10] Leanne DW: Yeah, I think that that is definitely something that we had in common [00:01:15] was being that voice in the room. That maybe is a little bit more, has a [00:01:20] wider range of experiences to bring from outside that, that founders or [00:01:25] scientists own world, where they're really, really good at that thing that they do, that is very [00:01:30] technical and very passionate about them, but they aren't necessarily well [00:01:35] versed in marketing or business.
[00:01:37] Leanne DW: And so what are, you know, that [00:01:40] can be its own challenge, especially when they're doing something new and exciting. We talked before, [00:01:45] we talked about, you know, being that first voice, that [00:01:50] first solo marketer. And so what are some ways that [00:01:55] you bring marketing strategy to these organizations [00:02:00] or advise them so that they can grow and accomplish what it is [00:02:05] they're setting out to do.
[00:02:06] Crystal Black: Well, usually the first thing I try to work on with folks is, what [00:02:10] is the business problem? What is the problem that they're solving? They're coming in with really cool tech gadgets of [00:02:15] some sort, and it's anywhere from various bits of hardware, lower power processing, [00:02:20] supercomputing, through now it's so much more software based, and they've got a really good idea.
[00:02:24] Crystal Black: What [00:02:25] was the problem they were trying to solve? Who were they trying to solve it for? And helping them articulate [00:02:30] that, helping them understand the voice of their customer, because most of the time at this stage, you know, they're [00:02:35] very focused on themselves, their technology, speeds and feeds, all of the cool stuff that [00:02:40] it'll do.
[00:02:40] Crystal Black: I try and help pivot them to thinking about what is it that the customer needs? What is the [00:02:45] thing that is, is just killing their customer today? And their customers may not even know it. And that's [00:02:50] where you get into this category creation. Their customer may be having a problem, a pain. [00:02:55] They don't know that it can be solved.
[00:02:57] Crystal Black: So, for example, today, I've been with Origin AI [00:03:00] for a few months now. And that was one of the first things I did was coming in. Understanding that [00:03:05] voice of the customer, what is that pain point? And then, you know, what's the ideal customer [00:03:10] profile? What are the personas? Who's in the room to buy those products?
[00:03:13] Crystal Black: What are their stories? [00:03:15] And as soon as we can understand their stories, then we can start to build content around that and the rest of [00:03:20] that marketing program.
[00:03:21] Leanne DW: Yeah, it's the like, just the, to put it bluntly, [00:03:25] it's looking at the founder and being like, okay, so how's that going to make you money? There's a lot of that, yes.[00:03:30]
[00:03:30] Leanne DW: You know, and Once again, these founders are very smart, [00:03:35] very savvy, very, like, just, I'm speaking very highly of [00:03:40] them. It's just not in their tool set because they're so good at the thing that they do. But [00:03:45] you're right, like, you know, asking them, like, okay, so who does this help and [00:03:50] how does it help them? And when we've talked about, like, category design and, [00:03:55] you know, like proof of concept type of marketing.
[00:03:58] Leanne DW: What are some, some [00:04:00] ways that you approach that?
[00:04:02] Crystal Black: The proof of concept on the marketing side, not the product side. Yes. [00:04:05] Because I play on both sides sometimes. Yeah. When you're at a small [00:04:10] company and you're, you know, in the teams for a number of employees, then you wear a lot of ads. [00:04:15] But from a proof of concept, from a marketing perspective, I actually like events for this.
[00:04:19] Crystal Black: Not that [00:04:20] there's always a lot of money for that, but I like to test messaging, even if it's attending the event, [00:04:25] trying to learn more about that space, meet some people, hear what the conversations are, and [00:04:30] start to join those conversations. But those in person discussions, I can start to test some of that [00:04:35] messaging before it even goes onto paper.
[00:04:36] Crystal Black: Other easy, quick wins are through digital marketing. [00:04:40] I'm not a big fan of Google advertising that can suck a lot of money really quickly, but you can do some, [00:04:45] some quick LinkedIn advertising, see what's resonating, A B testing, [00:04:50] emails, A B testing, emails. But my first step is almost always going to an event and just [00:04:55] walking the show floor and talking to people and seeing when eyes glaze over versus when [00:05:00] people start to get really engaged and talk.
[00:05:01] Crystal Black: And then I know I'm onto something with that messaging.
[00:05:04] Leanne DW: And you [00:05:05] know, this is a little controversial, but eavesdropping. I went [00:05:10] to a conference in San Francisco a number of years ago, and I sat down for a meal [00:05:15] by myself. And the people on either side of me, one of the gentlemen, like, you know, [00:05:20] I said hi real quick, but he's like, oh, you're brave for sitting by myself.
[00:05:24] Leanne DW: And I thought [00:05:25] to myself, I'm like, no, I'm just here to take notes on, you know, the shit that you guys talk about. [00:05:30] And, and I mean that because... When you hear someone's, like, [00:05:35] objections or the things that they, like, call out or find value [00:05:40] to organically talk about, it tells you a lot without, you know, it being, uh, [00:05:45] very forced.
[00:05:46] Leanne DW: So, number five on my survey. Did you like [00:05:50] this word? You know, it, it kind of, it's a little
[00:05:53] Crystal Black: sneaky. Oh, I also [00:05:55] find if you stay during the sessions and you stay through the Q& A, listen to the questions that [00:06:00] people ask, and I'll actually go up to the speaker and not ask questions because I'm curious what questions are [00:06:05] being asked and the ones that are not in front of everybody.
[00:06:08] Crystal Black: Someone's in front of everyone. That's [00:06:10] usually to make people feel really smart. But the ones that are actually to the speaker afterwards, once the crowd starts to [00:06:15] dissipate, get some really interesting questions and you can hear some really cool answers
[00:06:18] Leanne DW: too. Yeah, I [00:06:20] definitely agree because those are the ones that internalized the message of the speaker and [00:06:25] had a specific case or scenario.
[00:06:27] Leanne DW: that they wanted [00:06:30] application for or needed insight or clarity or they were just saying, you know, [00:06:35] networking.
[00:06:35] Crystal Black: There's that, but usually the questions are really rich kinds of questions and then [00:06:40] I can start to test my own kind of thinking and understanding of whatever that [00:06:45] topic was about.
[00:06:45] Leanne DW: Awesome. I feel like I took us on a tangent about this eavesdropping part, [00:06:50] but if we were going to kind of like retreat a little and [00:06:55] look at a general way of defining this.[00:07:00]
[00:07:00] Leanne DW: Would you say that creating a value system of some [00:07:05] sort or what that might look like might be involved when you start out doing marketing [00:07:10] for a organization that's trying to accomplish? Category
[00:07:13] Crystal Black: design? Well, absolutely. I [00:07:15] think values are important across the board, but especially in small companies. So it's always part of [00:07:20] my interview questioning is trying to understand the values of the company and if they're in line to my own values, [00:07:25] because we should always bring our full selves to work.
[00:07:27] Crystal Black: But at a startup, when you've got handfuls of [00:07:30] employees, that's even more important. There's, there's no real room for someone that [00:07:35] isn't fully engaged, right? There's, there's too much at stake. You're moving too fast. So bringing that full self to [00:07:40] work and that means that your value systems have to be aligned and the value systems of the [00:07:45] organization with the value systems of the people that they're trying to reach out to.
[00:07:48] Crystal Black: So I, I ask a lot [00:07:50] of questions about that before I even join a company at any stage through consulting or, or full [00:07:55] time engagement is to make sure that all of those are really well aligned. [00:08:00] If you get an executive that comes in that is not aligned with that, that can literally [00:08:05] destroy a small startup that's trying to move quickly.
[00:08:07] Crystal Black: So yes, I always really try and [00:08:10] approach things from a values based perspective. And when we think about the future, I think we're seeing a lot [00:08:15] of values assessments being made, especially from the marketing perspective. COVID.[00:08:20]
[00:08:24] Crystal Black: As we [00:08:25] think about the environment and the impact that we all have and that our products have, [00:08:30] I think that's really going to continue to escalate over, over these next few years. [00:08:35] And I'm really glad that I personally am very intentional about it. And I try and make sure my [00:08:40] organizations are really intentional about
[00:08:41] Leanne DW: it as well.
[00:08:41] Leanne DW: Yeah, absolutely. I think that giving space for that [00:08:45] intentionality helps to define what the brand really is. [00:08:50] Right, because we have what the brand guidelines say, and you know, the font and the [00:08:55] color and the tone of voice. We've got that. But then there's this like lived brand [00:09:00] experience. And to me, that's, that's like almost what [00:09:05] someone would call a robot or like an, you know, synthetic person, because [00:09:10] it's more complicated.
[00:09:12] Leanne DW: It's made up of these micro... [00:09:15] decisions and actions and experiences. And so when there's that [00:09:20] space given to the value system, you see it play out with strategic [00:09:25] partnerships or donations given in the brand's name or, you know, [00:09:30] different places where these things interact and intertwine that make up this larger [00:09:35]
[00:09:35] Crystal Black: experience of the brand.
[00:09:37] Crystal Black: The last couple of years have been interesting when we look at [00:09:40] advertising. We've seen a lot of potential missteps or perceived missteps from [00:09:45] brands that I don't always agree were missteps. Whether it's values about gender [00:09:50] identity, values around the environment. I saw one in one of my Slack channels [00:09:55] today about the Apple environment campaign, the five minute commercial that they had, and how [00:10:00] much backlash there was with that.
[00:10:01] Crystal Black: When Apple was really trying to do something really good and [00:10:05] describe something really good, but because it doesn't appear to align with what we know about that brand, I [00:10:10] think it ended up falling flat. You know, Pepsi's had that, we've seen the beer wars [00:10:15] with how, how their brands are really exposing themselves and trying to be more inclusive.
[00:10:19] Crystal Black: There's some [00:10:20] backlash, but then there's others that are really, you know, proactively encouraging these brands to [00:10:25] be more open. I think we're going to see a lot more of that, and I think it's going to be a lot of fun to watch. [00:10:30]
[00:10:30] Leanne DW: Absolutely. And I think that like that, that comes to bringing your whole self to work.
[00:10:34] Leanne DW: You know, [00:10:35] you mentioned that you're very selective about who you work with. And when you bring your whole self to work and you [00:10:40] support or, you know, whatever value system that you have as an individual, [00:10:45] you bring it and it does shade the choices that you make as an operator [00:10:50] within an organization. And so, you know, making sure there's that alignment and that comfort level.[00:10:55]
[00:10:55] Leanne DW: is very, very important. And so, kind of, it also, [00:11:00] bringing it back to like our theme of like category design, when you have people [00:11:05] within the organization, there's five people, it's like a microscope. And, you know, you [00:11:10] mentioned that, you know, the wrong leader can really, really negatively [00:11:15] impact it. And, you know, there's that saying that people quit their manager.
[00:11:18] Leanne DW: And [00:11:20] so, you know, I, I definitely think that you, you are right on there is that if there's a CEO at the top [00:11:25] and all of a sudden a bunch of people quit, you know, maybe there's a self [00:11:30] reflection that should occur.
[00:11:32] Crystal Black: Of course. Well, and I, I think we see a lot of interesting [00:11:35] things happening in the workplaces today, post COVID, right?
[00:11:38] Crystal Black: A lot of us were able to work from home. There's a [00:11:40] lot of us that don't want to go back to the office. And when we think about diversion and inclusivity. [00:11:45] Gosh, you know, working from home allows a lot of people to be able to participate in a [00:11:50] workplace in a way that, that not everyone has been able to previously.
[00:11:53] Crystal Black: So there's a lot of struggle here [00:11:55] as to what does the future of work look like and how do we want to engage within our, our spaces and [00:12:00] within our businesses. So I, I think there's a lot of neat stuff going on here, but you're right. I [00:12:05] think there's a lot of lip service that's paid at a lot of companies.
[00:12:07] Crystal Black: And not necessarily as much action as [00:12:10] we see some of the rollbacks on some of these CEI efforts. I worry that a lot of the companies will [00:12:15] stop talking about this, especially given some of the backlash from some of these ad campaigns. I [00:12:20] hope that these companies lean into it. I hope our leaders lean into this because we all [00:12:25] know that these CEI kind of programs absolutely make businesses better.
[00:12:29] Crystal Black: When [00:12:30] we bring our full self to work, I think there's more joy in the workplace and there's a lot of better [00:12:35] ideas that come out of it. And of course, we all make money as a result, although, you know, it's also a [00:12:40] more fun place to work.
[00:12:41] Leanne DW: Absolutely, and I love that everything you're saying, I [00:12:45] can think of at least three different research things that have occurred from [00:12:50] high quality institutions that support everything you just said.
[00:12:53] Leanne DW: Like, it's not just [00:12:55] opinion,
[00:12:55] Crystal Black: it's fact. Absolutely. And LeanIn does a great job. They have their annual [00:13:00] report and that's specifically for women. And their annual report, I use that every year with [00:13:05] my organizations to benchmark ourselves and see how we are doing. I try and [00:13:10] expand that. I mean, obviously I care as a woman in the workplace, but the [00:13:15] numbers for women of color are horrible.
[00:13:17] Crystal Black: And then we have all of the other kind of gender [00:13:20] discussions happening today that I, I think it's, it's all pertinent. So I try and make sure that I bring that to [00:13:25] my workplace and have a discussion annually based on that particular report, which I just [00:13:30] think is stellar. Yeah,
[00:13:31] Leanne DW: absolutely. You know, I, I've, I've seen a number of different [00:13:35] types of leaders and, you know, I can say that there is no [00:13:40] such thing as narrowly defined what a leader should be.
[00:13:44] Leanne DW: [00:13:45] And that, that's, that's a relic that should stay in the past, is that you can only be a [00:13:50] leader if you look like Don Draper. Probably not,
[00:13:53] Crystal Black: actually. Well, and if we can't bring [00:13:55] our full selves to work, I think, you know, on the topic of category creation in these small companies, [00:14:00] I don't think we can be nearly as successful.
[00:14:02] Crystal Black: There is nothing better in my mind than having [00:14:05] a whole organization working towards the same thing, having that same goal, and everyone being all [00:14:10] in. Because you win or lose together, and it is, it is joyous. [00:14:15] Either direction, as long as you know you've given it your all. And if there are voices in the organization [00:14:20] that aren't heard.
[00:14:20] Crystal Black: That seeps out externally, your customers, your prospects know that, but [00:14:25] internally, you're just not going to be able to reach as far if everyone is not included [00:14:30] in that effort.
[00:14:31] Leanne DW: Absolutely, and I want to call this out is that the [00:14:35] type of customers we have today are a lot more informed and [00:14:40] intelligent than the customers that, you know, in the, in the customer business [00:14:45] relationship that they existed 10, 15, 20 or more years ago.[00:14:50]
[00:14:50] Leanne DW: So the table stakes is, is a lot higher and the transparency [00:14:55] and people's ability to see through your bullshit is just It's [00:15:00] higher, like, like, just like in your Apple one, they're gonna be like, Oh, really? Tell us about the [00:15:05] lithium. Where are you getting lithium from? You know, like, it's, it's, there's, [00:15:10] in this era of globalization and access to information, yes, we are overwhelmed with [00:15:15] too much information, and sometimes misinformation, but there is [00:15:20] information at our fingertips.
[00:15:21] Leanne DW: And if you aren't Aligned externally and [00:15:25] internally with what your messages actually are and what your, you know, [00:15:30] actions are to support it, it'll all fall
[00:15:33] Crystal Black: flat. When I, I think it [00:15:35] bleeds into our marketing as well. So if we allow our full selves to come to work, if we were brave enough to bring our full [00:15:40] self to work and we were brave enough to reach out and understand everyone else's full self and allow [00:15:45] all of these voices, I think that comes out in our outbound communications as well.
[00:15:49] Crystal Black: If we [00:15:50] understand ourselves and all of the diversity within our own organizations, I think we're more open [00:15:55] to hearing the stories of our customers and of our prospects. And that allows a much deeper [00:16:00] connection too. And I think that joy that I feel when I work with these kinds of teams, I think that absolutely [00:16:05] spills into the relationships we have with our customers, with our partners, [00:16:10] and it just spreads.
[00:16:11] Crystal Black: And it's cool. I love that.
[00:16:14] Leanne DW: And just to kind [00:16:15] of follow up on that is that It makes us want, like you said, [00:16:20] embrace their stories, but hear and feel their stories, and when we can [00:16:25] humanize our brand into something that's relevant for those people [00:16:30] and actually kill a pain that they really have instead of one that, you know, um, We think they have.[00:16:35]
[00:16:35] Leanne DW: Yeah, it is a really cool thing to help prove the concept of what it is we're trying to do. [00:16:40]
[00:16:40] Crystal Black: Well, we've talked some about some kind of that customer journey. [00:16:45] And one of the things that I think about, I studied the hero's journey in college. Our [00:16:50] customers want to be their own heroes, right? They're at least in a B2B kind of space.
[00:16:53] Crystal Black: Maybe, maybe it's different in [00:16:55] B2C, but in B2B, I see a lot of companies want to be the hero. We're going to come in, we're going to [00:17:00] rescue you. But if we listen to our customers, we know that our customers want to be their own [00:17:05] heroes. They need people to help them, right? And our brands will help it [00:17:10] through, you know, whatever products that we give.
[00:17:12] Crystal Black: The more that we hear those stories, the more that we [00:17:15] understand those stories and can relate to them, I think the better that dynamic is. And we make. [00:17:20] The stories about our customers, we make sure that they're heard. We make sure that they [00:17:25] are made the heroes within their own organizations or with their own customer base.
[00:17:28] Crystal Black: And that's something I don't think we [00:17:30] can do if we don't kind of stop and listen and pay
[00:17:32] Leanne DW: attention. Absolutely. I was writing notes. I'm like, [00:17:35] Oh yes, you know, this reminds me of something I hear about all the time. You know, it's, it's [00:17:40] very popular on social media. A common reply is about like main character energy.
[00:17:44] Leanne DW: [00:17:45] And so that, that brings up a couple things. One, no one's Ursula in their own story. [00:17:50] Your customer might feel like they have room for [00:17:55] improvement, but if you sit there and you tell them that they're the bad guy, you're, you're in the [00:18:00] wrong conversation. Our customers are the main characters and what they're [00:18:05] looking for, and I'm going to put this into video game language because it feels good.
[00:18:09] Leanne DW: If [00:18:10] our customers are Zelda, We're just trying to give them swords and give them some coins they can collect [00:18:15] along the way so that they can finish their mission, right? Like, we don't want to be the [00:18:20] thing that they're trying to, like, the maze they're trying to figure out. You don't want to be the labyrinth, but you [00:18:25] want to be the thing that helps them get to their goal.
[00:18:27] Leanne DW: And that's how you can make that [00:18:30] partnership and not try to be, you can't have, [00:18:35] like, five main characters of equal weight.
[00:18:38] Crystal Black: I actually think of it more in terms [00:18:40] of Mario. I like to think of it as leveling up. I love that you went with the Nintendo term because I absolutely [00:18:45] think of it as leveling up. Yeah,
[00:18:46] Leanne DW: absolutely.
[00:18:47] Leanne DW: You know, I, I do, I am surrounded [00:18:50] by video games in my, not my personal use, but like my family loves it. [00:18:55] But, you know, there's, there's, there's these ideas of like side quests and all that. And that's a whole tangent we will stay away [00:19:00] from today. We will not go on a side quest with this conversation, [00:19:05] but, you know, when we're, we're kind of thinking about this [00:19:10] fledgling organization, they want their people to bring their full self and they want [00:19:15] that to help create the category and, and, you know, establish knowledge and [00:19:20] learnings and ramp them up so they can get their own revenue and a larger runway.[00:19:25]
[00:19:25] Leanne DW: You know, the external team, like, member of the customer, [00:19:30] making them the main character, and then the work that we do internally, you know, how do you think about it [00:19:35] from, like, a GTM perspective? Like, how do you kind of
[00:19:39] Crystal Black: frame that [00:19:40] up? Yeah, there's some, so many places we can go with that one. As you know, I'm a big fan of the GTM [00:19:45] motion.
[00:19:45] Crystal Black: I've seen enough companies that point fingers at each other when things don't work, but we [00:19:50] really, we want to surround the accounts. We want to have our own teams all operating at the same [00:19:55] level. It used to be marketing, you know, points of finger at sales, sales points of product, product points. back, [00:20:00] you know, maybe a customer success.
[00:20:01] Crystal Black: And there's a lot of finger pointing and nothing gets done. We see an evolution [00:20:05] where I like to call it smart marketing. I stole that from Terminus where sales and marketing was joined. But [00:20:10] what we see today now is more of this GTM motion where it's, it's all of the members of the [00:20:15] team in the room together, trying to solve customer problems.
[00:20:17] Crystal Black: If there is an issue, if things are not [00:20:20] selling, it's not about pointing fingers, it's about looking at data, working together, [00:20:25] trying to make sure that we're doing the right approach, and still bringing our full selves in. And there's [00:20:30] still a lot of joy in that, in that problem solving together. But it might be messaging, it might be product, [00:20:35] it might be sales, but it's all of us together because All of us need revenue [00:20:40] for the company, right?
[00:20:40] Crystal Black: It's, it's, it's about the company's goals. And none of us are getting bonuses if there's no [00:20:45] revenue. In fact, we're going to lose our jobs, all of us collectively. So we're all incented. [00:20:50] We all, you know, aside from the feel good of, we want to help our customers because we're a values [00:20:55] based organization. All of us working at the same level, trying to make sure we're reaching the [00:21:00] right people at the right time with the right product line.
[00:21:02] Crystal Black: And it's a great team effort.
[00:21:04] Leanne DW: [00:21:05] Absolutely. So, is there ever a time where, or [00:21:10] like, is there an organization that these types of ideas wouldn't be a good fit for? [00:21:15]
[00:21:15] Crystal Black: Well, the smaller the company, you might find your GTM team is smaller because there's fewer [00:21:20] hats to, like, there's fewer people in the seats. And so, for example, at my current organization, I'm, [00:21:25] I'm managing sort of a RevOps kind of role.
[00:21:28] Crystal Black: We don't necessarily have much [00:21:30] in the way of customer success yet because we're too small. We have customers, but you know, there's not a dedicated customer [00:21:35] success. We're all responsible for that. So we end up wearing a lot of hats and you just have fewer people [00:21:40] in the room as a result. But I think you always want a GTM kind of motion to work with [00:21:45] how to get your message out and how to keep those customers happy once you have them.
[00:21:49] Leanne DW: [00:21:50] Absolutely. This reminds me of, you know, the concept of builders [00:21:55] and scalers and Puppeteers, is what I guess you could think of them. [00:22:00] And each of those is different for the different stages and needs of the different [00:22:05] organization. And so, when you're thinking about, like, value systems of the [00:22:10] individual within that small, fledgling organization, you're also thinking about their POV.
[00:22:14] Leanne DW: [00:22:15] And it's very hard for someone that is used to being a puppeteer [00:22:20] to come into a five person organization and put on the gloves. And [00:22:25] be the person that is, okay, well, today I created our [00:22:30] Google ads account. Today, I decided that we should go with this email [00:22:35] platform instead of this one. Or, you know, today I, and, [00:22:40] and they thought, you know, this is the infrastructure we need to start building so that we can [00:22:45] get to the scaling stage or we can do this.
[00:22:49] Leanne DW: And there's [00:22:50] a There's different POVs at that early category creation.
[00:22:54] Crystal Black: Well, [00:22:55] that's a, that's a good point. There's, there's two things I hear there. One is every person, no matter how strategic [00:23:00] or how senior are rolling up their, their sleeves. And there's a fine line. Like I, I don't know how [00:23:05] CEOs Draw that line where they have to roll up their sleeves, but then they have to drive the organization and [00:23:10] use strategy and that changes over the life cycle of that organization as it moves forward.
[00:23:14] Crystal Black: And [00:23:15] I even struggle with that. You know, how much strategy do I do and how much am I in HubSpot [00:23:20] doing the goo? Because I have to do both and balancing that for the best for the organization can [00:23:25] be a challenge and salespeople as well. Like, how much do you delve into the strategy? [00:23:30] Building your account plans, building the systems that are needed, the analytics [00:23:35] versus getting out and dialing, you know, your, your own SDR, your, your own land and [00:23:40] expand like your, your own customer success and balancing all of that is truly challenging.[00:23:45]
[00:23:45] Crystal Black: We think about POV of an organization, a seed stage company is going after investment versus [00:23:50] when you're in the series A, you're building the product, whole different point of view of what you need to [00:23:55] accomplish as an organization. At B stage, now you're building the business, you're building the infrastructure, [00:24:00] you're trying to ramp revenue, you're in that growth phase.
[00:24:02] Crystal Black: And so you're right that the goals of each [00:24:05] organization change dramatically. And how much your, your people can do as you [00:24:10] scale, that changes and you've got to be so nimble and, you know, Silicon Valley likes to [00:24:15] talk about failing fast. There's absolutely failing fast and you can't be afraid to just make decisions and [00:24:20] go and test.
[00:24:21] Crystal Black: And if it doesn't work, you know, go, oops. That was a good [00:24:25] try. How are we going to do it differently now? Because you don't have a lot of time in these early stages. [00:24:30] If you're a category creator, if you've got that great idea, another company does too. [00:24:35] So how you're duking it out in that time is also, that's a narrow window.
[00:24:39] Crystal Black: And it's, [00:24:40] it's fun. Like it's exhilarating to be in there, but oh my goodness, balancing [00:24:45] all of those needs is really hard. Yeah.
[00:24:47] Leanne DW: And you don't know what you don't know. And so, [00:24:50] you know, having a team that knows that those are your needs. It's very, very important. [00:24:55]
[00:24:56] Crystal Black: I feel bad. I've seen a lot of Oracle executives come [00:25:00] into the kind of companies that I like to specialize in.
[00:25:03] Crystal Black: It's really hard. So they're like, [00:25:05] okay, where's my ops person? Where's my finance person? Where's my HR person? Where's... Where's this? Where's that? And [00:25:10] it's like, Oh dude, that's all you and me. Like, it's two of us. We're going to go. Well, yeah. [00:25:15] Welcome to
[00:25:15] Leanne DW: customer success. What, what do you want to do about it?
[00:25:18] Leanne DW: And it just be a coffee [00:25:20] conversation instead of a 10 people panel. Yeah. I mean, there's, [00:25:25] it's a wild ride either way. Right. It's, it's a wild ride. And you know, there's, [00:25:30] there's pros and cons to each kind of situation, but yeah, you gotta be able to, to [00:25:35] have different customer sets at different stages. and also like the Oracle [00:25:40] person, they're not going to know what an investor wants to hear unless they've been an investor [00:25:45] themselves.
[00:25:45] Leanne DW: Because they just haven't seen it work or not work. Yeah, and I can't
[00:25:49] Crystal Black: be at an [00:25:50] HP or an Oracle. I would fail miserably unless there's some little skunkworks group that operates [00:25:55] like a, like a startup. I, I just wouldn't be able to. I love the building aspect [00:26:00] of it. I love the nimbleness and the quickness.
[00:26:02] Crystal Black: The lack of layers, you know, I [00:26:05] had direct access to my CEOs at every company. Usually I work for the CEO, and [00:26:10] so you develop these kinds of really interesting relationships that I would really miss at [00:26:15] these larger organizations. Yeah,
[00:26:17] Leanne DW: I relate to that very much. I said yesterday, so I'm like, [00:26:20] man, I am not the right fit for a thousand person organization.
[00:26:23] Crystal Black: Can't even imagine. [00:26:25] I think a 500 person organization is huge. And, and
[00:26:29] Leanne DW: that's not to [00:26:30] say that, you know, that's not to diminish on skills or abilities, or personalities, or bringing [00:26:35] your whole self. It's that bias towards action can get easily [00:26:40] frustrated by too many layers of dilution or [00:26:45] approvals, or it's a lot easier to flip a U turn.
[00:26:49] Leanne DW: [00:26:50] And, you know, a two seater coupe than it is the Titanic, [00:26:55] you know, like it's just easier to get five people aligned and [00:27:00] moving quickly than it is a thousand. Because who's to say you can ever get a thousand people [00:27:05] completely aligned. That is some internal marketing work. That is change [00:27:10] management. That is.
[00:27:10] Leanne DW: A whole new ballgame. So there's, there's pros [00:27:15] to each and cons to each is all I'm saying.
[00:27:17] Crystal Black: Absolutely. And, and I, I will just [00:27:20] tell anybody who's interested in startups, it's one of the most common questions I get. It is not for the [00:27:25] faint of heart, right? I, there's a lot of job losses. There's a lot of companies that close.
[00:27:29] Crystal Black: There's a [00:27:30] lot of companies that get acquired and then you've got your job loss. There's the fast decision making [00:27:35] there that your mistakes can cost a lot. So it is not for the faint of heart. [00:27:40] Yeah,
[00:27:40] Leanne DW: and that being said is that before we press record, we talked about [00:27:45] when, what type of organization can do a category design.
[00:27:48] Leanne DW: And there wasn't, [00:27:50] from my perspective, there wasn't just, you know, only a startup with this great [00:27:55] idea can do it, or only an Apple can do it. It's whoever has money and interest in [00:28:00] doing it can do it.
[00:28:01] Crystal Black: Yeah, and category creation is interesting because you've got to figure out, is [00:28:05] there pain? You know, why is it a new thing?
[00:28:07] Crystal Black: Is it because the pain isn't bad enough and people aren't [00:28:10] going to pay for it? Or is it that they don't know that they have the pain and now you have to pay to educate? [00:28:15] That's a lot of money. I've been in a lot of first to markets that end up not being as [00:28:20] successful because the second to market gets to ride the coattails of the education, but it does take [00:28:25] a lot of money.
[00:28:25] Crystal Black: And in this environment right now, There's not a lot of capital going around, and [00:28:30] so you've got to do a lot more with less. You're working out of the garages more often in order [00:28:35] to prove yourself, to prove, like in the dot com era, you know, when we, when the dot com [00:28:40] industry collapsed, right, being able to prove yourself, and, and that's just kind of the phase we're in.
[00:28:44] Crystal Black: It's great because [00:28:45] you can get great talent right now, but that capital is not flowing like it was. [00:28:50]
[00:28:50] Leanne DW: And, uh, looking forward five years from now, the [00:28:55] people that are successful today with less capital and are more efficient with [00:29:00] their growth are going to have more sustainable progress in [00:29:05] feast and famine, right?
[00:29:06] Leanne DW: Like, you can't... You can't just start up in a [00:29:10] feast season and be like, Oh, we're gonna, you know, do everything. And I think that starting off in [00:29:15] that famine season makes it a little bit more resilient because it does take more to survive, [00:29:20] but it also teaches them lessons about the cost of money.
[00:29:23] Crystal Black: Well, I think it's also about [00:29:25] focus.
[00:29:25] Crystal Black: So when you're in a, in a peace situation, you can do this, you can do that, you can be in multiple [00:29:30] industries, you can scale so fast, and you spend a lot of money way faster than I think most [00:29:35] people. Realize, especially if you're a first time entrepreneur or first time CEO, that money [00:29:40] can disappear quickly, but in this kind of environment, you know you have to focus in on this one [00:29:45] thing.
[00:29:45] Crystal Black: What is the thing that I'm going to solve today? Make that successful, get the revenue coming in, and then [00:29:50] you can expand from there. And so it is a much more sustainable, to your point, a more sustainable way [00:29:55] to move forward.
[00:29:55] Leanne DW: Yeah. I call it the doing less with more instead of [00:30:00] more with less. You want to be very focused.
[00:30:03] Leanne DW: And so, you [00:30:05] know, we've, we've kind of talked about, like, you know, where, where this would be their own fit, [00:30:10] and it's, there's definitely seasons that are more amiable to it, and seasons that [00:30:15] aren't, but, you know, looking forward towards as we go through this [00:30:20] kind of constriction, and then, you know, eventually, we won't be in such a [00:30:25] one, because cycles, not that I'm psychic, but because cycles.
[00:30:28] Leanne DW: in optimism, [00:30:30] but where do you think the future of marketing is going? [00:30:35] And also to follow that up, where do you think it should go if it's not [00:30:40] necessarily the same?
[00:30:41] Crystal Black: Well, I'm going to sound like everybody else and talk about AI, which [00:30:45] sounds rather droll now because everyone's talking about AI. But I do think that [00:30:50] ChatGPT and some of these other generative AI technologies, which by the way have been around for years now, [00:30:55] um, but are finally popularized, they're democratized, we all have access to it.
[00:30:58] Crystal Black: I think we're going to see that [00:31:00] expand not from necessarily just a content creation, which, I mean, content creation is fun. [00:31:05] We see it with images, we see it with text, we see it with voice. There's a lot of ramifications [00:31:10] about that. Everyone else is talking about that and so I won't delve into that, but I do think that [00:31:15] AI can be great when it comes to helping us practice.
[00:31:18] Crystal Black: Like I could practice my [00:31:20] interview questions here before we came on because of generative AI, but I can also [00:31:25] get to ICPs faster. I can get to persona creation faster. So using [00:31:30] AI to really accelerate the amount of work we do is great as a solo marketer that I [00:31:35] have like a little helper on the side. I'm using it to get to [00:31:40] analytics.
[00:31:40] Crystal Black: We see chat spot and I can't remember what Salesforce is called, but [00:31:45] all of these tools are going to use AI to help us find patterns. I think that's going to be [00:31:50] fantastic, and that's all short term. That's, that's right around the corner. I don't think it's quite there yet, at least [00:31:55] with some of these analytics, but it's going to be fantastic.
[00:31:57] Crystal Black: It's, it's just going to allow us to, to look at [00:32:00] patterns in a much better way and hone in our strategies in a better way, aside from all the [00:32:05] content stuff that they're talking about now. I think, uh, like I talked earlier, brand [00:32:10] image, I think we're going to be more intentional. You know, we've transitioned over 20 years that people [00:32:15] tell us what our brands are.
[00:32:16] Crystal Black: Um, and we have a conversation about that brand, but I [00:32:20] think in a post COVID era, we're going to be much more intentional about [00:32:25] humanity. Whether it's mental illness, mental health in general, it's going [00:32:30] to be about sustainability. We're seeing a lot of ads already starting on that. I think that's only going to [00:32:35] continue as we see all of these macro conditions are affecting us and people are [00:32:40] going to demand that of our brands.
[00:32:42] Crystal Black: As far as what they shouldn't be, I [00:32:45] don't know, we shouldn't be jerks, you know, I, I, whether it's ourselves, our brands, you know, [00:32:50] authenticity, of course, you know, the kids all talk about authenticity and I love that, being, bringing our full [00:32:55] selves to work, bringing our full brands to market, I think that's all going to continue and that's [00:33:00] going to be great.
[00:33:01] Crystal Black: So we should continue that, but you know, let's, let's not be jerks about it. [00:33:05] Let's realize there's a bigger world around us. I think diversity is going to be [00:33:10] expanded to include neurodiversion, neurodiversity. I think that conversation is [00:33:15] great. And I think we're going to see workplaces change, not just marketing, but workplaces [00:33:20] in general, be more accommodating and more accepting.
[00:33:22] Crystal Black: People, so it's not just about [00:33:25] male female, gay straight, all of this communication, all this [00:33:30] conversation going on around us. That's all going to seep into everything we do, including our marketing, [00:33:35] and I am so excited about all of that. I
[00:33:37] Leanne DW: agree. I think that there's a lot of just [00:33:40] really great skills and talents and perspectives in value [00:33:45] that, you know, everyone has to offer, and I think that [00:33:50] You know, people deserve to not be stigmatized [00:33:55] over these uncontrollable things, right, like it wasn't a choice, [00:34:00] like, you know, and I think that, you know, if we choose [00:34:05] to be jerks, we should be punished, you know, but I think that [00:34:10] I You know, when it's, it's not a matter of choice, what we get from [00:34:15] including people as they really are is the benefit of knowing them, you know, [00:34:20] and in that might make me sound like, you know, a very California, like tree [00:34:25] hugger type of person, but I am.
[00:34:27] Leanne DW: And I love that about myself is that I love [00:34:30] people and you know, that's what gets me to be a [00:34:35] great marketer is looking at the humanity of it instead of the numbers of it. [00:34:40] And of course, I love numbers. You know, that is, you know me, you know, I love my spreadsheets, [00:34:45] but there's people that those numbers reflect.
[00:34:48] Leanne DW: And I agree that [00:34:50] we really, you know, in this booming population, we want people to feel like they [00:34:55] belong and we want them to feel like they belong with us as coworkers, as [00:35:00] colleagues, as friends, as people we network with. We want them to feel like they belong as [00:35:05] customers. We want them, we just want that sense of belonging.
[00:35:08] Leanne DW: And it's, it [00:35:10] really does enrich all of our lives. As well as, you know, [00:35:15] begrudgingly, our bottom line, but it's the triple bottom line. You know, I think the, the era of the [00:35:20] asshole CEO is It's not going to be as possible in the future. [00:35:25]
[00:35:25] Crystal Black: I certainly hope so. There's a lot of value that people can bring to the table regardless of how they look, [00:35:30] how they think, how they, there's just tons of value.
[00:35:33] Crystal Black: And so I hope you're right in that these [00:35:35] asshole CEOs are working their way out and so that we can have these kinds of [00:35:40] environments that are accepting and just incredible. There's so much value that [00:35:45] we get personally that our companies get. So fingers crossed. Yeah. Fingers crossed.
[00:35:49] Leanne DW: I do [00:35:50] believe in fairy tales.
[00:35:50] Leanne DW: So, you know, we've got that. So, you know, we've talked about so many [00:35:55] things and, you know, I want to make sure that we really, I want to call this out because I [00:36:00] feel like, you know, things have been kind of leading up to this point when, when we talk about value systems [00:36:05] and inclusivity and different ways of going about our marketing is.
[00:36:09] Leanne DW: What is a question [00:36:10] someone should ask
[00:36:11] Crystal Black: you? Oh, in general, in the workplace, it's what, what does good look like? [00:36:15] I don't think this question gets used nearly enough. This one, I can't take credit for. This came, [00:36:20] comes from Kim Scott and Radical Candor, which I know she, she'd love to rename that book because of all those asshole [00:36:25] CEOs that, that, Take advantage of that, but what does good look like?
[00:36:28] Crystal Black: What does good look like out of [00:36:30] ourselves? What does good look like out of our companies when someone wants to deliver something and we've been vague having [00:36:35] them ask me? You know, what does good look like if I say hey go go produce a thing and I've been [00:36:40] vague about it You know, what does good look like to you?
[00:36:41] Crystal Black: Because oftentimes we have no idea what's in the [00:36:45] brains of the person that we're asking or that we're working with and so What does that look like [00:36:50] is, is this incredible question that if I'm asked, I can say, well, it's this [00:36:55] with these kinds of analytics and, and the stuff. And now you, as the person asking me the question, [00:37:00] absolutely now understands what I meant when I said, go build me an email blast, [00:37:05] go build me a campaign, go, go make this or, or whatever happened.
[00:37:09] Crystal Black: And it just helps [00:37:10] everyone visualize and get on the same page. So that's, that's my absolute favorite question.
[00:37:14] Leanne DW: [00:37:15] I agree. I love it. I think that. You know, when we ask ourselves that before we make requests of other [00:37:20] people, we make the world a better place because then you, you tell them what you're actually asking them [00:37:25] for.
[00:37:25] Leanne DW: Funny story that I'm sure all of our graphic designer friends out there can relate to is when a [00:37:30] customer's like, but not like that, can you make it pop? Like what, what really happened was they didn't [00:37:35] tell you what they thought good would look like. So it's the it's just so [00:37:40] powerful knowing and being intentional about
[00:37:42] Crystal Black: and asking ourselves about it.
[00:37:44] Crystal Black: What does good [00:37:45] look like? What does good in our lives look like? What does good? You know, what's a what's our social life? What's [00:37:50] our what companies do we want to work for? What does good look like and that can help us get back to our [00:37:55] values too? And what is what is the thing that that makes us feel good?
[00:37:59] Crystal Black: What [00:38:00] makes us lead enriched lives? And lives of joy, even. It probably sounds hokey, [00:38:05] but if we, if we know what that looks like for ourselves, I think we just live better lives, too. [00:38:10]
[00:38:10] Leanne DW: Yeah, I think it makes us better co workers, colleagues, friends, co workers, [00:38:15] managers, CEOs, all of that, you know. It's that going upstream that you might [00:38:20] hear about, is that if you come across someone that is having bad behavior and you go upstream to, like, [00:38:25] what caused it, and you think about, Well, are they hangry?
[00:38:29] Leanne DW: Are [00:38:30] they? But, but more than that, that's a very, like, shallow description of going upstream. But it, [00:38:35] it helps to trigger the thought process of, of what does good look like and how did we get here? So [00:38:40] when we can have the things that make us fulfilled, we are more [00:38:45] likely to impact those around us positively.
[00:38:48] Leanne DW: Without being like a [00:38:50] toxic, you know, toxic positivity, as it's only like, we aren't trying to be like one of those meme [00:38:55] inspirational posters here. We're just trying to be good people. It's easier to [00:39:00] be a good person when you feel good. Indeed. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining [00:39:05] us and entertaining my philosophical fairytale thoughts and feelings.
[00:39:09] Leanne DW: I [00:39:10] appreciate everyone listening to this episode of Markagee. If someone wants to get a hold of me, the [00:39:15] best way to do it is to email info at markageemarkigy. [00:39:20] com. If someone wants to get a hold of Chrys. How should they do that? Uh, so
[00:39:24] Crystal Black: [00:39:25] LinkedIn's an easy way, or you can email me at crys at crys@crysblack.com.
[00:39:28] Crystal Black: Note that it's spelled C R [00:39:30] Y S and black like the color, short for Crystal, but you can email me directly that way too.
[00:39:34] Leanne DW: [00:39:35] Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Crystal, Crys. It's cause you said it [00:39:40] before. Thank you for joining me. Thank you everyone for listening and keep in touch. [00:39:45] Thank you so much.
[00:39:46] Leanne DW: Bye.
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